Author Topic: Spit 5  (Read 11540 times)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2004, 07:11:52 PM »
Your correct Karnak!

I didn't realize it until I started researching the 190 that the Luftwaffe had an "enemy test flight" as well.  Over the course of the war they managed to acquire a rather large collection of allied Aircraft.  I am convinced they derated the BMW-801 "as needed" to maintain it's advantages over the Merlin Spit.

http://p069.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm59

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2004, 07:43:29 PM »
Here is another link on captured allied A/C:

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/FAACapturedAircraftHomepage.html


So you can say the problem is we have a Merlin 61 (+15) that is a little too fast.

Well If it's speed is corrected then it should be a great opponent for the FW-190A5.

The FW-190A8 should need the Spitfire Mk IX (+25lbs) to have a level field in the air over the channel. :)

I am hoping AH will eventually model the FW-190A1 or A2.  We need an early 190 for TD to go against the Spit Vb (+12).


Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2004, 08:21:05 PM »
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So you can say the problem is we have a Merlin 61 (+15) that is a little too fast.


Darn it no bites....

Actually the Spit IX is modeled fine.  When Pyro gets around to redoing the FW's the FW-190A5 should be a great opponent for it.

For Tour of Duty we need to lobby for the Spit IX (+25)!

Crumpp

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2004, 01:28:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
For Tour of Duty we need to lobby for the Spit IX (+25)!

I'd be happy for any Merlin 66 Spit.

Given that not even the perked Mk XIV runs +25lbs boost I'd say there is pretty much a 0% chance of getting a LF.Mk IX at +25lbs boost.
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2004, 05:18:49 AM »
IMO based on the following facts and science:

The Merlin 66 (+25) developed, depending on the source, a few more Horsepower, the same, or a few less.  The BMW-801D2 developed anywhere from 1970hp - 2050hp at 1.58ata/1.62ata.

Check out the weight and Horsepower between the FW-190A3 and the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 61 (+15).

Compare weight and Horsepower between the two.

FW-190A3 - 3978Kg
Horsepower - 1580 HP @ 2700 rpm/1.42 ata at 9186.35 ft ASL

Spitfire Mk IX (Merlin 61) - 3392.87 kg
Horsepower - 1565Hp @ 3000rpm at 11250 ft ASL

Only the speed runs where done at 1.42ata which the 190A3 was rated for only three minutes. The majority of the test was done at 1.32ata @2400U/min. Much lower Output.

The RAF should need the Merlin 66 (+25) to stay competitive in the Air War.  The RAF needed it in 1943!

Crumpp

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2004, 09:14:06 AM »
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The Merlin 66 (+25) developed, depending on the source, a few more Horsepower, the same, or a few less.


Mike Williams Spit site has a Merlin 66 power graph. Go to http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html and it's right down the bottom.

It shows power for 18, 25 and 28 lbs (28lbs may have been used on some Mosquitos)

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Only the speed runs where done at 1.42ata which the 190A3 was rated for only three minutes. The majority of the test was done at 1.32ata @2400U/min. Much lower Output.


The same is true for the other aircraft in that test. The Spit IX, for example, used 3000 rpm 15 lbs for speed runs. It doesn't say the exact power rating for the other tests, other than saying it's 30 minutes climb power, but the manual defines the 30 minute rating as 2850 rpm, 12 lbs.

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The RAF should need the Merlin 66 (+25) to stay competitive in the Air War.


I don't know much about Fw 190 speeds. Judging by what the charts on the HTC page show, the Spit IX with 25 lbs boost would be faster all the way up to 20,000ft, at most altitudes considerably faster. That's just going on what the HTC charts show for the A5 and A8, however, and I'd apreciate any different figures.

The Spit would also have a huge climb advantage, as well as turn rate, acceleration (a 7,400 lbs plane with 2000 hp that can climb at 5500 ft/min accelerates well).

I think the Merlin 66 at 18 lbs was more than enough to make the Spit IX competitive with the 190 A series in 1943.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2004, 03:04:01 PM »
Nashwan,

 
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The same is true for the other aircraft in that test. The Spit IX, for example, used 3000 rpm 15 lbs for speed runs. It doesn't say the exact power rating for the other tests, other than saying it's 30 minutes climb power, but the manual defines the 30 minute rating as 2850 rpm, 12 lbs.


Yes and the Horsepower were still fairly even.  The FW-190 used 1.32ata @ 2400U/min for the rest of the tests.  Point is the FW190 did NOT have the huge horsepower advantage over the Spitfire Mk IX many think it did.  Its performance was not based on a huge power advantage.  It got its performance from aerodynamics.

The wing aspect ratio of the 190 is better.

Spitfire - 5.61

FW-190A3 - 6.01


http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/geom.html

It also explains why the 190 had a much better zoom climb.

Check out the climb speed of the Merlin 66 Spit. 411 Mph is only 3 Mph faster than the FW-190A8.  The altitudes the FW-190A3 had advantages over the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 61 (+15) are pretty much the same ones the FW-190A8 has over the Merlin 66 (+25).

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/jl165.html

The Merlin 66 (+25) only had a best climb speed 10 mph faster than the Merlin 61.  It climbed at a much steeper angle but even with a Hp increase in available power over the Merlin 61 it still could not overcome the induced drag of the Spitfires wing.  Now this same wing gave it excellent low speed handling but the lift it generated worked against it at high speed.  Induced drag has an inverse relationship to Aspect ratio.  The lower the ratio the higher the drag.  In other words, at high speeds it put the breaks on.  The faster you went, the more the drag increased.  This is why even at altitudes were Spitfire had a faster top dive speed and (higher mach number) took so long to accelerate and would be left by the 190.  The 190's weight and level acceleration advantage would leave it behind.  If the 190 kept his dive at those altitudes the Spit would eventually catch him.  This is also why the 190 a much higher dive speed in the thicker lower atmosphere.

The Spit XIV Griffin 65 was able to dominate the 190A.  The horsepower gains of the Griffon 65 were not that phenomenal over the Merlin 66 (+25).  However the weight gain and keeping a similar Power to Weight ratio of the Spitfire XIV gave it the inertia to overcome the induced drag and catch the 190A in the zoom.  The Spitfire Mk XIV could zoom up with 190A and stick with it in the dive.  Things no other Spit was capable of doing.

Check out the FW-190A8 at 1.58ata/1.65ata @ 2700U/min. Also check out the FW-190A5.  Keep in mind the A5 was rated for 1.58ata/1.65ata when equipped with C3 "Boost".

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm

Compare them and verify my conclusions, Please.

I think the RAF will need the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 66 (+25) in Tour of Duty.

Crumpp

Offline GODO

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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2004, 08:20:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Actually the Spit IX is modeled fine.  


:rofl

Dive with them.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2004, 09:04:36 PM »
I think the Spit's dive speed is model correctly for all the varifiable data available.   Some of what we see has got to be net lag.  Offline has completely characteristics than online.

If the dive speed limits are adhered to according to the pilots manual then the Spit is roughly 30 mph faster in the dive above 10,000 feet.  However, It's drag co-efficient AND induced drag from it's lower aspect ratio should severly hamper it's dive accelleration.  This matchs not only the science but the tactical trial experience.  Below 10,000 feet the FW-190 is significantly faster both in dive accelleration and top diving speed.  Up to 70 mph faster.  

You can verify this by comparing the dive speeds in the manuals.

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9v109g.html

For the Spit IX:

 Between  S.L. and 20,000 ft. -450  
  20,000 and 25,000 ft. -430  
  25,000 and 30,000 ft. -390  
  30,000 and 35,000 ft. -340  
Above  ..................35,000 ft. -310  

For the FW-190A:

0-2 km - 850 kph

3 km - 800 kph

5 km - 700 kph

7 km - 600 kph

9 km - 500 kph

I do have to add that these speeds add up to NOTHING close to either A/C mach limit.

I sent Pyro a whole bunch of data out of the FW-190 manuals.  He is going to sort through it when he gets the chance.  Redoing the FW-190's FM is on the agenda.  It's just not the priority right now.

My scanner is fixed and I owe you the graphs on the 190A3.  Here is a copy of the tactical trials with Faber's FW-190A3.

http://prodocs.netfirms.com/

Crumpp

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2004, 06:25:03 PM »
Thanks for the 190 docs, I hadn't seen most of those before.

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The altitudes the FW-190A3 had advantages over the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 61 (+15) are pretty much the same ones the FW-190A8 has over the Merlin 66 (+25).


Based on the figures you've linked to, the Spit IX on 25 lbs will have a speed advantage at all altitudes.

Bear in mind JL 165 was running extremely poorly when the A&AEE got their hands on it, it had already been used for extensive tests by RR.

Here's a graph showing the performance the A&AEE estimated for JL 165 at 18lbs, compared to other tested Spits at 18lbs:



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The 190's weight and level acceleration advantage would leave it behind.


I don't believe the 190 had a level acceleration advantage under most circumstances.

The AFDU found no advantage for the 190 except at altitudes where it had a speed advantage. That's against a Spit F IX, with much lower horsepower, and a much worse climb rate, than the Spit LF IX.

When you'[re talking about a Spit LF IX at 25 lbs, you have no weight gain, and up to 500 hp more than the plane tested against Faber's 190.

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The 190's weight and level acceleration advantage would leave it behind. If the 190 kept his dive at those altitudes the Spit would eventually catch him.


According to the Spit pilot in the test against Faber's 190, the Spit would begin to catch the 190 after a dive of 3000 ft.

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This is also why the 190 a much higher dive speed in the thicker lower atmosphere.


The Spitfire was limited because of iupfloat of the ailerons, nothing to do with drag per se.

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The Spit XIV Griffin 65 was able to dominate the 190A. The horsepower gains of the Griffon 65 were not that phenomenal over the Merlin 66 (+25)


At lower altitudes, the Merlin at 25 lbs actually put out more horsepower than the Griffon at 18 lbs. And that in an airframe with no extra weight.

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However the weight gain and keeping a similar Power to Weight ratio of the Spitfire XIV gave it the inertia to overcome the induced drag and catch the 190A in the zoom.


Extra weight isn't really an advantage for a fighter. It would be quite easy to make any WW2 fighter heavier with the addition of extra armour, for example, but the work all went the other way, on keeping them as light as possible.

You might lose in zooms and dives, but you gain in level acceleration, climb rate, turn rate, low speed handling, and increased g limits.

The Spit LF IX with 25 lbs boost would dominate any of the 190s up to the A9 at most altitudes. I can quarantee that you won't see a Spit at 25 lbs unless it's a highly priced perk.

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I think the RAF will need the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 66 (+25) in Tour of Duty.


I'd be very suprised if the RAF gets anything more than a Merlin66 at 18 lbs in tour of duty, unless it's to combat the very late war aircraft like the Dora and 109 G10/K4.

Mind you, I don't know how they are going to manage perks/limited availability in ToD. But I don't expect to see the Merlin 66 at 25lbs up against the 190A in anything like similar numbers.

Offline gripen

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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2004, 11:25:52 PM »
Well, someone is creating new theories on induced drag in this thread but  I leave that for others ;)

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2004, 11:58:40 PM »
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Here's a graph showing the performance the A&AEE estimated for JL 165 at 18lbs, compared to other tested Spits at 18lbs:


That is a nice chart.  Notice it starts at 340mph and the FW 190A8 bottoms out at 350mph at Sea Level.

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According to the Spit pilot in the test against Faber's 190, the Spit would begin to catch the 190 after a dive of 3000 ft.


Only at Higher alititudes which is what the rest of the test says.  The Spit just had too much drag and not enough weight to have a better dive accelleration.  Down in the lower atmosphere the Spits top dive speed was 70 mph slower than the 190's.  That info is right out of the pilots manual dive restriction speeds.

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The AFDU found no advantage for the 190 except at altitudes where it had a speed advantage.


Yes, at 8000-15,000 Ft ASL and Above 25,000 Ft.  Seems the sky is pretty evenly divided with each plane getting a big chunk.  Very similar circumstances exist for the Spitfire Mk IX Merlin 66 vs FW-190A8.

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When you'[re talking about a Spit LF IX at 25 lbs, you have no weight gain, and up to 500 hp more than the plane tested against Faber's 190.


1.  The Horsepower increase in the Merlin 66 is right on par with Horsepower increase of the BMW 801D2. Both engines increase the same amount in available power.  Check out the chart on the website I provided.  1800 hp @ 1.42ata at 2700U/min.  Most sources quote between 1950 hp and 2050 hp at 1.58ata/1.65ata.  HoHun has a Luftwaffe chart showing this.  I am trying to get a copy of it.  Anyway,  It is a linear progression so you can figure it out.

2.  Zoom climb is a function of Power to weight ratio, wingloading (higher the better in general), and inertia.  The extra weight increases your inertia and helps to launch the plane up.  Since the 190A8 maintained almost the exact same Power to weight ratio as the FW190A3.  The FW-190A8 had a better zoom climb than the 190A3.


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Extra weight isn't really an advantage for a fighter. It would be quite easy to make any WW2 fighter heavier with the addition of extra armour, for example, but the work all went the other way, on keeping them as light as possible.


See number 2 above.  Actually Aircraft designers have always been willing to add a few pounds based on other factors (Power, Airfoil design, etc..).  Aerodynamics is all about balancing the forces of flight.  You cannot rob Peter to pay Paul in it.  Make an A/C too good in one aspect and it will suffer in others.  This is also why aircraft as so specialized and "jack of all trades" designs are masters of none.  Which brings me too:


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You might lose in zooms and dives, but you gain in level acceleration, climb rate, turn rate, low speed handling, and increased g limits.


Your absolutely right in Climb rate, Turn rate and low speed handling.  The tremendous lift of the Spitfire's wing made it outstanding in those catagories.

Accelleration is a fight between Power to weight and drag.  The Spitfire not only had a higher drag coefficient when you do a wet plate comparison, that wonderful high lift wing generated more induced drag the faster you went.  It needed a much bigger Power to weight ratio to overcome it's drag.  A good indicator of Level accelleration is dive accelleration.  The 190 left the spitfire behind in Dive accelleration.  Even the Spit XIV couldn't keep up with the 190's dive accelleration.  

That is not to say that the Spit's level accelleration did not improve greatly in the Merlin 66.

G-limits have to do with A/C construction and airframe stress.  Nothing adding a few more horsepower will effect.  Except to  get you to the pilots G limits faster.

The Merlin 66 (+25) is an even match for the FW190A8.  

Since I mainly fly Luftwaffe though I will concede the point.:D

Great discussion Nashwan!

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2004, 07:04:33 AM »
Gripen,

Drag

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/factord.html


Induced Drag

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/dragco.html


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The drag coefficient equation will apply to any object if we properly match flow conditions. If we are considering an aircraft, we can think of the drag coefficient as being composed of two main components; a basic drag coefficient which includes the effects of skin friction and shape (form), and an additional drag coefficient related to the lift of the aircraft. This additional source of drag is called the induced drag and it is produced at the wing tips due to aircraft lift.


I did not specify BASIC Drag Co-efficient, so it was confusing.  My Mistiake.

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2004, 08:32:38 AM »
Crumpp,
I see you  understand my point. If you look drag coefficient calculation in your second link, you see that lift coefficient for given lift decreases when the speed increases. Therefore it's easy to understand that induced drag  decreases when the speed increases (note relation between speed, angle of attack, lift coefficient and induced drag).

The aspect ratio difference between Spitfire and Fw 190 is quite small and due to lighter weight the Spitfire needs less lift to fly. Therefore it can be seen that induced drag does not cause differences in zoom climb. More likely difference is caused by larger airframe of the Spitfire (more wet area) and higher weight of the Fw 190 ("stores" more energy in dive). In fact drag rise of the Spitfire when entering compressibility speeds were relatively low, this explains why the Spitfire could catch Fw 190 in the prolonged dive.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2004, 09:17:43 AM »
Quote
The aspect ratio difference between Spitfire and Fw 190 is quite small and due to lighter weight the Spitfire needs less lift to fly.


That is your opinion.  Do the math and they are a significant factor.  

 
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Therefore it's easy to understand that induced drag decreases when the speed increases (note relation between speed, angle of attack, lift coefficient and induced drag).


It does NOT decrease with speed.  If it did WWI biplanes would have broken the sound barrier long ago.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/vel.html

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doubling the velocity will quadruple the lift and drag.


Now the Spitfires designers were not stupid by any means.  By using the eliptical wingtips they reduced the penalties for the high lift wing as much as possible within the limits of engineering.
You cannot argue though with the science. The numbers don't lie.

The Spitfire was a wonderful fighter.  It has been very much romanticized over the years. Both the Science and the history tell us though that any Merlin Powered Spit that fought in the vertical would soon find themselves shot down by A/C designed for the vertical fight.
Just as any A/C designed for the vertical would be shot down trying to angle fight against a fighter optimized for angles.

Crumpp