More Gun control???

[lazs2]

curval... yes.. I trust all my fellow Americans with firearms.   I think that if safety became an issue with some of the inexperianced new owners then they would learn soon enough...

I would even give mass murders or bank robbers their guns back when they were released from prison...

The way I look at it... if they are good enough to be free citizens alongside me then they are good enough to have the human right to defend themselves.

as for bermuda and the U.S.  ..... symbiotic relationship at most... but, don't get so full of yourself over your importance to us... if you didn't exist we would create you.

One thing I have learned over the years is that no one is irreplaceable.  

I allways here this "people are too stupid to have guns" from the euros here... It creeps me out... that you guys all have this eliteist history and it still is inbred into you... that is what I am talking about.

lazs

[demaw1]

It is the free citizens right and duty to be at all times armed. That they may injoy their freedom of religion,press,property,and person.

   Thomas Jefferson,written to John Cartwright.....1824.

   The thing is we believe our founding fathers knew what they were doing, and we choose to believe them, as they knew first hand the possible heavy handedness of goverment by europes example.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by demaw1
It is the free citizens right and duty to be at all times armed. That they may injoy their freedom of religion,press,property,and person.

   Thomas Jefferson,written to John Cartwright.....1824.

   The thing is we believe our founding fathers knew what they were doing, and we choose to believe them, as they knew first hand the possible heavy handedness of goverment by europes example.

You're not wrong, but all these TJ quotes are anachronistic in the 21st century.  People were still defending their properties themselves (visions of the man of the house standing on the stoop, rifle in arms with a raccoon thing on his head).

We've already established, in this thread, that no way would citizens with their 6-shooters be a match for what the military could throw at them (witness Waco,TX). And we've also established, in this thread, that no way would the US military, which is made up of US citizens, annihilate the civilian population. So forget those 19th century anachronisms. You're just using those to suit your agenda, not because they have any bearing on modern life.

I'm like Curval - I completely trust guys like Lazs with guns. It's the idiots I don't trust, and I'm somewhat appalled with the ease with which said idiots can acquire deadly weapons and then go on an evil mission.

I have never said that law abiding Americans should be made to give up their guns. I'm opposed to unilateral disarmament. But given that most countries were not settled like the US and had no frontiersmen with raccoons on their heads, there was never any need for guns and that's why we don't have them, not because we once had them and then they were forcibly taken away. Countries around the world have seen America's folly of arming idiots. And those countries which have never had and never needed an armed populace do not want to see a skyrocketing annual homicide rate. If we had gunshops on every corner, WE would also have a homicide rate as high as America's. It makes no difference whether the people dying in the ensuing bloodbath are white, black, law abiding, criminals, drug users, non users, good people, bad people... a bloodbath is a bloodbath, and it's not something the British public wishes to see. That goes for the general population of many other countries too.

[beet1e]

America’s history with guns goes back to the days of frontiersmen. In those days, you HAD to have a gun. Because you’ve never been to Europe and have little knowledge about how other countries came to be what they are today, it may be difficult for you to comprehend that Britain’s origins are completely different from those of the US. We never had any frontiersmen. We never had any Davy Crocketts or Daniel Boones. The first King of England was Egbert in AD.803 In the centuries since, Britain saw many battles as our territorial map was drawn. Many of these famous battles took place at a time before guns existed, and so arrows and spears and swords were used instead. Richard III was the last monarch to die in battle – in 1485 at the Battle of Bosworth, a few miles from where I was born.

Throughout the Middle Ages, the Church was all powerful in Britain. Many Churches were built, and many still stand. There was turmoil when Henry VIII could not get a divorce from his first wife, a situation that led to Henry forming his own Church – the Church of England, and the execution of Sir Thomas More.

You simply cannot compare the history with Britain with that of America. Your Thomas Jefferson quotes come from a time when the US was less than 50 years old, and are about as relevant to modern life as King John and the Magna Carta is to us. In your earlier “we have guns and you don’t” crowing, you simply fail to understand the difference in our two countries’ origins. You’re doing what Lazs used to do – trying to make the US thesis fit the UK model. It doesn’t work.

Guns were a part of your history, but guns did not exist when our history was unfolding – ie. battles like Bosworth, and the 1066 Norman conquest, and the Roman occupation before that.

So to say that you have “more freedom” because you can own certain types of guns is as ridiculous as if I were to say I have more freedom than you because I can attend an 800 year old Cathedral, and you can’t.

[Curval]

Originally posted by lazs2
curval... yes.. I trust all my fellow Americans with firearms.   I think that if safety became an issue with some of the inexperianced new owners then they would learn soon enough...

I would even give mass murders or bank robbers their guns back when they were released from prison...

The way I look at it... if they are good enough to be free citizens alongside me then they are good enough to have the human right to defend themselves.

as for bermuda and the U.S.  ..... symbiotic relationship at most... but, don't get so full of yourself over your importance to us... if you didn't exist we would create you.

One thing I have learned over the years is that no one is irreplaceable.  

I allways here this "people are too stupid to have guns" from the euros here... It creeps me out... that you guys all have this eliteist history and it still is inbred into you... that is what I am talking about.

lazs

I'm confused.  I've been told that you, and others, have guns for the BIG 3 reasons.

1.  Self defense
2.  Fun
3.  Hunting

I haven't seen any pictures of you shooting any big game, or any game for that matter.  I haven't seen any posts in which you profess your love of the great outdoors and in which you display any trophies, such as a deer or moose.

So, I assume your not the great white hunter.

This takes "hunting" out of the equasion, in your particular case.

Fun.  Yes.  I've seen pictures of you plinking cans and targets.  I've read how much you enjoy maintaining your guns as well as collecting them.  This I can understand and relate to.

But, self-defense?

Forgive me, but I don't see the need, given all your "trust" of your fellow Americans.

It seems to be all about fun.  Okay fine, but please stop all the nonesense about Monarchies and the lack of freedom in Bermuda and Europe and concentrate on what is important, the prevention of your own citizens from taking your toys away.

[lazs2]

Ok curval first... yes I trust my neighbors.  I also realize that the world is full of very bad people who will do bad things.   when they do... I want to be armed...I also want my nmeighbors to be armed.   I see no percentage (and the studies back me up) in maki8ng it so that only the criminals have the advantage in force.

I am for strict laws and penalties on gun crime and lax gun laws on gun ownership and use otherwise.  simple no?  And of course... as all the studies point out.. a very pragmatic and logical way to deal with the problem of aggressive bad guys..  

To think that murderers cease to be murderers when guns ar hard or even impossible to get is ludicrous..  To think that you are a match for them with a nine iron is romantic and ignorant.

but I don't understand... What does it matter what my reason is?  

lazs

[lazs2]

Now beetle...

Are you claiming that government and humans are completetly different today than 200 or so years ago?   No chance of tyranny or of bad guys out to harm people?   The co9nstitution wasn't meant to protect us from wild animals or guarentee that we had foord on the table..

The second was a human ritght to defend against tyranny.   Nothing in the constitutiojn is outdated.  People have not changed.  Your own country proves that bad guys will do bad things no matter what the laws.  And you live on a tiny little island that has easily secured borders and no place for the bad guys to hide.  

All in all... firearms in the hands of normal average citizens is a net plus for detterent of all types..  

Waco?   How many wacos could a tyrannical government squash at one time?   especially if their buildings were being bombed and their military was half or more in favor of the people?   No military of our government could put out the fires by even a few million dedicated and armed citizens.

As for trusting me with guns but no one else... I am again... insulted.  I do not wish to be an elite.   You are not the first new shooter I have trained..  I felt no threat from even the least intelligent or poor of them.  I can see no reason for my neigbors to not have firearms if they wish.   I worry more that they drive cars.   I have not met anyone interested in firearms that seemed to stupid to be deprived of his rights.  

lazs

[lazs2]

And... let's reverse cuirvals thinking... what are the reasons the anti gun people have for taking away the human right to self defense?

(1)  In bermuda peasants killed a few of the elite royals with guns

(2)  the peasants are too stupid to use tools.

(3) I don't care about guns so it doesn't matter.

those are the only reasons I have seen so far.

lazs

[beet1e]

Lazs,

Two questions.  

1)  If you trust your neighbours, and you would trust a mass murderer with a gun upon completion of his prison sentence, who are the people you fear to such a degree that you need to keep that loaded .45 by your bed when you sleep?

2) When your "founding fathers" passed the 2nd amendment, and Thomas Jefferson spoke with such patriotic fervour, do you think the people of that time ever imagined that blacks could become US citizens, and would be able to buy .44 magnums? If the answer is NO, then that is what has changed in 200 years.

oops - gotta go, someone at the door. I wonder who it is at this time in the evening. Probably a guy selling double glazing, or a neighbour to whine about the parking, or a mass murderer - nothing to worry about...

[Toad]

Be sure to take your 9 iron to the door with you! Or maybe a hammer or sharp object!

You just never know.

[DieAz]

Originally posted by beet1e
The first King of England was Egbert in AD.803  

???????

of ALL England. yes, but not 1st King. and it was in 829 AD he was proclaimed sole ruler of Britain.

http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/mon1.html

[wrag]

Originally posted by beet1e
Lazs,

Two questions.  

1)  If you trust your neighbours, and you would trust a mass murderer with a gun upon completion of his prison sentence, who are the people you fear to such a degree that you need to keep that loaded .45 by your bed when you sleep?

2) When your "founding fathers" passed the 2nd amendment, and Thomas Jefferson spoke with such patriotic fervour, do you think the people of that time ever imagined that blacks could become US citizens, and would be able to buy .44 magnums? If the answer is NO, then that is what has changed in 200 years.

oops - gotta go, someone at the door. I wonder who it is at this time in the evening. Probably a guy selling double glazing, or a neighbour to whine about the parking, or a mass murderer - nothing to worry about...

I trust my neighbours, however, history and reality show that here in America, well actually all over the world, there are bad people around.  These bad people from time to time do bad things to other people.  The difficulty seems to come from that silly thing we have saying you are innocent until provin guilty.

Actually I think T.J. did think in time black people would be free.  He spoke of it, and against it (slavery), several times.  He seemed to feel we were only storing up trouble for ourselves.  Said as much.

In fact I think what seemed to be worrying many back then was what was happening in Haiti, around 1809 I think it was.

Also from what I've read there would not have been a U.S. if those wishing slavery abolished had gotten what they wanted.  I think at least 6 of the 13 states said they would not join the Union unless slavery was permitted.

[wrag]

Yuck!!!!!

This kinda stuff really goes on over there???

#  London's Daily Telegraph reported in August on the veiled but apparently active market of British collectors who buy and sell fetuses and stillborn babies, with one seller saying he has heard of prices over 5,000 pounds (US$9,100). The major suppliers, apparently, are labs and medical schools, which dispose of their "curiosities," usually deformed fetuses such as babies with two heads. Said one dealer, of the seriousness of the collectors, "(It) is a very small market, but a very keen market." [Daily Telegraph, 8- 1-04]

[Curval]

Originally posted by wrag
Yuck!!!!!

This kinda stuff really goes on over there???

#  London's Daily Telegraph reported in August on the veiled but apparently active market of British collectors who buy and sell fetuses and stillborn babies, with one seller saying he has heard of prices over 5,000 pounds (US$9,100). The major suppliers, apparently, are labs and medical schools, which dispose of their "curiosities," usually deformed fetuses such as babies with two heads. Said one dealer, of the seriousness of the collectors, "(It) is a very small market, but a very keen market." [Daily Telegraph, 8- 1-04]

Oh yes Wrag...it is a British weakness.  All British people are compelled to collect baby fetuses.

They start with the peasants and then when no more can be found the gentry are called upon to supply whatever fetal matter they can.

In Bermuda we wait until our gracious leader Queen Elizabeth II pronounces how many fetuses will be required annually from the colonies.  We, as a group, then meet to discuss how many each colony will provide.

It is all worked out by prorating the requirement against the population of each country.

[Horn]

Originally posted by Curval
Oh yes Wrag...it is a British weakness.  All British people are compelled to collect baby fetuses.

They start with the peasants and then when no more can be found the gentry are called upon to supply whatever fetal matter they can.

In Bermuda we wait until our gracious leader Queen Elizabeth II pronounces how many fetuses will be required annually from the colonies.  We, as a group, then meet to discuss how many each colony will provide.

It is all worked out by prorating the requirement against the population of each country.

Knew it had to be something like that.

h
(rofl)