So did the Mk VIII really had 2100 miles range ?

[Nashwan]

Nashwan, it looks rather cheap if you start telling questionable versions of what others really think, instead of letting themselves telling their own point of view.

I haven't said anything about what you think, I've pointed out what you are claiming.

I don't want people to think I'm claiming the Spit had a greater range than the Mustang, or could fly 2100 miles on 210 gallons of fuel.

I'm just trying to distance myself from your straw man argument.

As for the 109G and 10mpg Spit8 source, they are surely not comparable, as the 109G figures are for avarage consumption with reserves for the whole trip,

I haven't posted range figures for the Spitfire, I've posted consumption figures. They match the consumption figures you posted for the 109.

Range depends on how much fuel you allow for warm up, climb, reserves, combat, head winds, safety margin etc, but the consumption figures are the rate at which fuel is consumed per distance travelled, and by themselves do not contain reserves etc.

The rest of your story is just to complicated to understand what and how exactly I`d gain with that..

It's a straw man argument.

I posted figures which show at very low speed, the Spitfire could achieve 10 mpg.

To discredit that, you multiply 10 by theoretical capacity figures, ignoring all the other factors that make range much less, and then use the much higher than actual figure in an appeal to reason.

In other words, you are overstating the Spitfire's range, saying everybody knows it couldn't fly that far, and then trying to discredit the original figures with that.

It's a classic straw man argument.

From Nizkor's explanation of a straw man argument:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

   1. Person A has position X.
   2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
   3. Person B attacks position Y.
   4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

[Angus]

Oh, for the record:
Spitfire Mk IX's with a little extra fuel within the Wings plus two Mustang under-wing overload tanks were flown from wright field USA to the UK via Iceland.

A production Mk IX was fitted with a 75 gallon fuselage tank + a 45 gallon drop tank. At rough weather and low flying at the most economical cruise available due to cirkumstances, the Aircraft cruised the distance to Berlin and back, duration was 5 hours.

Hope this adds something for the calculus.

BTW, this was an experiment for the development job of the later  long ranged Mk VIII's.

From Jeffrey Quill's data, the Spit I is rated with a 575 miles range on 85 gallons. How does that compare with the 109E?

[Delirium]

You could at least show some appreciation for a drawn image of a pilot that flew the sorties and a pic you'll never see again since it was privately owned.

No, instead you post a well known image, attempt a flame, and don't even know who Udet is.

Real class act..

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
I can prove that with a cartoon, too :

[Angus]

Hehe, Issy should know who Ernst Udet was. Well, I'll give some facts about thim.
He was a WW1 Ace and a friend of Göring....
He was a stunt pilot, Bon vivant, heavy drinker and a hobby cartoonist.
He commited suicide in 1941 (rather than 42).
Werner Mölders had a fatal crash on the way to (rather than from) his funeral.

Anyway, some figures.

Additional 120 gallons gave the Mk IX at Almost SL,easily the range of 1200 miles,speed actually being 240.

That gives me 6 miles a gallon under rather unfavourable cirkumstances.
(climb, descent, windy and low flying).

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Delirium
You could at least show some appreciation for a drawn image of a pilot that flew the sorties and a pic you'll never see again since it was privately owned.

No, instead you post a well known image, attempt a flame, and don't even know who Udet is.

Real class act..

Barbi nows who Udet is. He knows all the heros of nazi Germany.

[SunTracker]

The P-51 carried two 150 gallon drop tanks on missions to Japan.  Thats alot of fuel.

[HoHun]

Hi Angus,

>From Jeffrey Quill's data, the Spit I is rated with a 575 miles range on 85 gallons. How does that compare with the 109E?

Using the 0.43 L/km figure from the Emil manual, I get 578 miles for the Me 109E, so it compares quite nicely :-)

(Assuming you're quoting still air range, too.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[HoHun]

Hi Jab,

>Then there's fuel for warmup, taxiing, take-off, forming up, climbout, landing (remember they didn't all land at once!), plus a built-in reserve.  

Good point :-)

I'd say rather than comparing relatively unimportant still air range figures, we should try and find a realistic mission profile we can apply to all aircraft we're comparing in the same manner.

The P-51 manual doesn't even contain data for the same minimum power cruise as the British used for the Me 109 and the RAAF for the Spitfire VIII, nor does the Luftwaffe's Emil range table. This tells us a bit about the operational impact of minimum power settings :-)

At one point in the war, the Air Ministry actually advised all Spitfire pilots to fly at maximum cruise power settings whenever in airspace where contact with enemy planes might be expected!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Angus]

Milo, cool it a bit.
Udet was a WWI vet. Although high in ranks within Nazi Germany, it was not all really his cup of tea.

His suicide note read "Iron man, you let me down"
(Iron man was Göring)

More of the Heroes.....

Mölders did not wear his medals on his later missions as a protest to his authorities.

Galland was late in the war confined to his quarters, with a subtle suggestion to take poison.
On an occation, when Göring blurted out that the LW pilots were cowards, Galland ripped his medals (Iron Cross) off and flung them on the table, with the words "you can then have that" or something in the direction.

Rommel participated in the Plot to kill Hitler. He was given an option to take poison which he did.

It's a dark history indeed.


Anyway, getting back to the point, at SL under bad conditions the Spit IX seems to burn near a gallon on the 6 miles. Maybe an authentic MAX cruise consumption figure?
(What Issy considers normal)