Author Topic: None, Zero, Nada...  (Read 5210 times)

Offline Nash

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« Reply #165 on: August 07, 2004, 11:27:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
I enjoy watching you spin.


 High praise indeed.

I'm saying this and only this.

Out of thousands and thousands of people who served in Vietnam 35 years ago but weren't in Kerry's crew, a few have gotten together and wrote about events concerning Kerry and his crew.

His actual crew, however, say this is a load of crap.

I'm with the crew on this. You can be on Tom Clancy's team.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #166 on: August 07, 2004, 11:34:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
 High praise indeed.

I'm saying this and only this.

Out of thousands and thousands of people who served in Vietnam 35 years ago but weren't in Kerry's crew, a few have gotten together and wrote about events concerning Kerry and his crew.

His actual crew, however, say this is a load of crap.

I'm with the crew on this. You can be on Tom Clancy's team.


I actually have to agree with you on the crew issue.  They do stand by kerry and that is a testiment.

BUT,

The guy that took over kerry's boat after he left 'nam would have an interesting perspective on kerry's leadership abilities by working with his crew.  It reminds me of a part in the NCO creed.

"I will never forget that I am responsible to my Commanding Officer for the morale, discipline, and efficiency of my men.  Their performance will reflect an image of me."

Now in THIS post I'm not accusing Kerry of anything just trying to make a point that the guy that took over Kerry's boat might have a thing or two to say about him.

"

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #167 on: August 07, 2004, 11:36:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
 High praise indeed.

I'm saying this and only this.

Out of thousands and thousands of people who served in Vietnam 35 years ago but weren't in Kerry's crew, a few have gotten together and wrote about events concerning Kerry and his crew.

His actual crew, however, say this is a load of crap.

I'm with the crew on this. You can be on Tom Clancy's team.


Was his crew responsible for rating his performance, or was his Commanding Officer.   Which one was tasked with observing his conduct, abilities, and performance then grading it?

Offline Nash

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« Reply #168 on: August 07, 2004, 11:43:30 AM »
Beats me...

All I know is that the people who were there are saying that this faxed-affidavits-cum-novel written by people who weren't there, is fiction.

Offline Horn

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« Reply #169 on: August 07, 2004, 01:11:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Every single one of Kerry's CO's says he isn't fit to be CIC.

Every.
Single.
One.


Maybe so, but at least one of them liked him as an officer:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and
ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.

LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is intrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.

During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and third awards)."

George M. Elliot, LCDR."

From his FITREP.

h

Offline Toad

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« Reply #170 on: August 07, 2004, 02:49:05 PM »
Can't believe you're still catching them on this one.

All using your personal definition of the unbearable lightness of being..... there.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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« Reply #171 on: August 07, 2004, 04:13:18 PM »
You may think it's a troll, but truth is like fishing with a light.

Next you'll be accusing me of being weaz. :)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #172 on: August 07, 2004, 07:38:37 PM »
The "Swift Boat" guys are pissed at Kerry for speaking out against the war.

That is all. Here is the Cliff Note version.

Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired) - "His turncoat performance in 1971" -  Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
 
Andrew Horn - "came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us" -  Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Jeffrey Wainscott -  Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Robert Elder - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War
(not on the boat)

Joseph Ponder - Pissed about Kerry's Book (not on the boat)

Commander Grant Hibbard, USN - Says he saw the first wound, Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Bernard Wolff - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

David Wallace - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Captain George Elliott, USN - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG - We were winning the VN war, and Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

William Shumadine - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Richard O'Mara - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Steven Gardner - YAY!  Actually says he was on the boat. Never once says Kerry lied. Says he was indecisive and placed them in danger.

Robert Brant - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

James Steffes - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)

Sigh!.... How about we look at their (Bush & Kerry) plans for running the Country instead?

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #173 on: August 07, 2004, 07:45:11 PM »
This is a kinda funny thread.

Nash is arguing that these people could not have possibly known about kerry, despite the fact that kerry stood before congress and insisted he knew about all of them.

I find that ironic.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #174 on: August 07, 2004, 08:03:01 PM »
Deja, I have the sneaking suspicion that you find everything ironic. You have a nose for it.

Liz hinted at it, and finally MT said it; these guys have a huge bone to pick that has nothing to do with anything involving boats and guns.

And this fact is being so conveniently overlooked....

The American Swifters for Democracy were assembled and are being financed by some rich GOP Texas dude. They are like the Backstreet Boys. Led by Lunatic-geek John O'Neill, they are nothing more than a modestly funded attack dog tarnishing the service of a fellow American veteran and bringing the divisiveness of the Vietnam era smack dab into the 21st Century. It's ridiculous and shameful. As the Vietnam War continues to rage on, apparently...

You can find irony in anything. If you were so inclined MiniD, you could find it here too.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2004, 08:16:48 PM by Nash »

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #175 on: August 07, 2004, 08:24:20 PM »
bone to pick?

Yeah.. I guess you could say that.  But what you don't really seem to understand is that you use argument a to dismiss argument b, while insisting the other side can't do the same.

I fail to see what any of these people stand to gain 35 years after the fact.  They aren't on trial.  They aren't still serving in the military.  There really is no reason for it.  Unless... they still believe that kerry got up before congress and lied his bellybutton off.  And... that kerry was a traitor.

Bone to pick?  You'd really have to prove that... as opposed to just using it to dismiss everything.

And.. it is ironic nash.  The fact that I noticed it (and notice it quite a bit from you) doesn't diminish that.  You're perhaps one of the most circular arguers I've ever seen.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #176 on: August 07, 2004, 08:35:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
But what you don't really seem to understand is that you use argument a to dismiss argument b, while insisting the other side can't do the same.


There was no argument to begin with. So if any argument exists, it started first with (b), and I'm using (a) to refute it. So if you gotta prollem with that, why don't you also have a problem with argument (b)? Lack of it is telling....

I have to prove the "bone to pick"?

Well... I really don't think you need it. A good starting point is MT's post above.

If you want, I'll give you the zact quote from the one guy who was on Kerry's boat for a coupla months.... on the circumstances surrounding his decision to speak out about Kerry. It begins "I was driving home from work listening to Rush Limbaugh when my blood began to boil..."

Honestly Deja... you're picking a side as much as I am. You're not floating above it, simply pointing at one thing and calling "irony".... for the thing you choose to point at shows which dog in this fight is yours.

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #177 on: August 07, 2004, 08:39:36 PM »
Every one of Kerry's COs said he isn't fit to be CIC.

Every
Single
One

Offline Nash

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« Reply #178 on: August 07, 2004, 08:41:52 PM »
By the way...

Quote
Originally posted by Mini D
There really is no reason for it.  Unless... they still believe that kerry got up before congress and lied his bellybutton off.  And... that kerry was a traitor.


Their book is not titled "Why we can't stand Kerry's Testimony" and does not talk about why that testomony was wrong.

They attack something else. His service. Not related. Total BS.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #179 on: August 07, 2004, 08:45:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Every one of Kerry's COs said he isn't fit to be CIC.

Every
Single
One


Here is what his commanders said about Kerry in his fitness reports:

Lieutenant Commander George Elliott

In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard

Hibbard's evaluation was brief and incomplete because Hibbard oversaw Kerry's service for only about two weeks. Kerry's duty under Hibbard included "counter infiltration operations against Viet Cong forces. Engaged in combat operations." Hibbard marked a few performance categories, noting that Kerry's initiative, cooperation, and bearing ranked among the top few. But unlike other evaluators who wrote about specific actions by Kerry, Hibbard did not do so, providing this explanation: "The short period LTJG Kerry was attached to Coast Division 14 prevents further evaluation."

Captain Adrian Lonsdale

In the November 4, 1996, issue of South Coast Today, wrote: "Adrian Lonsdale remembers a young John F. Kerry as a naval officer who was a good debater, even back in his days in Vietnam. "'He and I and others used to have long discussions at the officers club,' said Mr. Lonsdale of Mattapoisett, a former Coast Guard officer who commanded a division in which the Massachusetts senator was attached back in 1969. 'They were very spirited discussions about the war and the politics back home.' "'He was opposed to the war but it didn't make any difference in his performance,' said the former owner and still instructor at Northeast Maritime Institute in New Bedford. 'He was a very good officer.' "Capt. Lonsdale was among a group of former Vietnam veterans the Massachusetts Democrat brought to the Charlestown navy yard recently to rebut a Boston Globe column that raised questions about Sen. Kerry's Vietnam service, particularly the Silver Star he won. "Mr. Lonsdale was in charge of a two-division flotilla opereating [sic] out of Phu Quoc, a big island near the Cambodian border. One division was made up of Swift boats, fast 50-foot offshore boats, while the other was composed of 82-foot Coast Guard patrol boats."
Note this is not a fitness report

Admiral Zumwalt

Admiral Zumwalt signed Kerry's silver star recommendation. In 1996, he defended John Kerry in the midst of a close political campaign. Admiral Zumwalt is deceased, his son decided to speak on his behalf.

Captain Charles Plumly
Kerry was under his command for a brief time. There are no reports from him about Kerry from 1969.

Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott

Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

Captain Allen W. Slifer

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer: "A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising. "

Admiral Walter F. Schlech

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
"... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career."

Captain E.W. Harper, Jr

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.