Author Topic: Stick Stirring (Read 636 times)

Mak333 · « **on:** August 07, 2004, 01:39:22 PM »

I just wanna hear your comments.

In the past few days, I've seen enough to churn a thousand gallons of butter!

GScholz · « **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2004, 01:44:35 PM »

People did "stick-stir" back in WWII as well. We however are limited to just a "little" stirring because of lag issues.

simshell · « **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2004, 01:45:54 PM »

i dont mind people using them but i do mind when i cant even see there plane because its warping everware

i like to call it a warp roll plane rolling so fast that on my screen hes warping everware

TheCage · « **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2004, 03:01:54 PM »

Here is my take on stick stirring. I feel 9 times out of 10 the person who you think is stick stirring is actually someone who is out of control. You've saddled up on his six, fired a few rounds at him making some nonlethal hits, and have taken him by surprise. Realizing he's in trouble, he attempts to make a hard break turn, or go into a scissors, but in the attempt pulls in a bit to hard on the stick or kicks in too much rudder. Now he's either in a stall, or on the leading edge of one. He attempts to get his plane back under control as quickly as he can without getting shot down. You see his plane gyrating all over the place and have come to the conclusion that he is stirring the stick to avoid you.

In reality you caught him totally by surprise, and his over reaction to your attack has caused him to loose control. Now I am not saying that no one at all doesn't stick stir but the vast majority of the time it's not. Even when my squad does training, I see what looks like stick stirring from a fellow squad mate, but actually it's just a loss of control issue. Granted there are times when you loose control and manage to quickly get back under control. You end up with an advantage on your pursuer, and because of this you would be accused of stick stirring.

AH2 flight model is not as forgiving as AH1 was, and getting into a loss of control problem is much easier to do now, especially if the intended target is a newer person, who hasn't learned to fully control his plane in combat. That is just my 2 cents on stick stirring.

Arlo · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2004, 03:12:00 PM »

I guarantee if I'm trying to get some distance and I'm on the deck there's a little bit of all three axis involved.

detch01 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2004, 03:12:34 PM »

LOL the only people I've seen "stick stirring" are the ones close on my 12 about to get shot. If they can do anything to avoid getting shot more power to them. Expecting people to fly a predictable track just so someone can get their kill shot in is just a tad ridiculous.
Having said that, with the AH2 FM I haven't seen anyone actually successfully "stick stir" his way out of trouble yet. I've seen lots of people tumble their rides out of control exactly as Cage describes. I've seen people do that and recover from it quickly, but they have always in my experience blown their E doing it and made themselves an even easier kill. My $0.02

JB73 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2004, 03:14:53 PM »

stick stirring is a result of net lag, usually induced by someone performing a manuever that is faster then the network connection, and can't be fully represented on your front end.

a snap roll is an excleent example of this. putting the plane into an intentional position where X force on rudder or ailerons causes the plane to radically roll over in a stall.

i ond tknow about the real life ability to recover from a snap stall, but in the game some planes can recover rather quickly. it is usually planes with a high roll rate like the 190's

a great example of a snap roll can be done in the c205 i forget the exact manuevers but it involves pulling up to a high angle of attack while turning against the engine torque. give full rudder deflection at the moment of stall and the plane literally flips over almost 270 deg in a matter of a second or 2. from there you recover from the induced stall, and fly away.

some planes in the game go into flip stalls rather easily (the spits from what i have seen) and they are really diffucult to recover from. you can zoom right by them, and they are still falling to the ground.

as stated it is usually someone pulling to hard on the stick in an evasive manuever and losing control. personally i would like to see that modeled more. if you lose control you shoudl have to work really hard at recovering.

another thing that would be great would be a hard code of a snap stall in the game. if a plane goes into one of these, instead of warping your front end would take over showing what the plane would do. kind of like "reading" what the plane is going to do, and picking up the actual plane position after the second or 2 after the induction of the stall.

oh well my 2¢

Jackal1 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2004, 03:22:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TheCage
Here is my take on stick stirring. I feel 9 times out of 10 the person who you think is stick stirring is actually someone who is out of control. You've saddled up on his six, fired a few rounds at him making some nonlethal hits, and have taken him by surprise. Realizing he's in trouble, he attempts to make a hard break turn, or go into a scissors, but in the attempt pulls in a bit to hard on the stick or kicks in too much rudder. Now he's either in a stall, or on the leading edge of one. He attempts to get his plane back under control as quickly as he can without getting shot down. You see his plane gyrating all over the place and have come to the conclusion that he is stirring the stick to avoid you.

In reality you caught him totally by surprise, and his over reaction to your attack has caused him to loose control. Now I am not saying that no one at all doesn't stick stir but the vast majority of the time it's not. Even when my squad does training, I see what looks like stick stirring from a fellow squad mate, but actually it's just a loss of control issue. Granted there are times when you loose control and manage to quickly get back under control. You end up with an advantage on your pursuer, and because of this you would be accused of stick stirring.

AH2 flight model is not as forgiving as AH1 was, and getting into a loss of control problem is much easier to do now, especially if the intended target is a newer person, who hasn't learned to fully control his plane in combat. That is just my 2 cents on stick stirring.

I see your odds and raise you 1 out of 50 stick stirs you see is done by accident or loss of control. It is most commonly on purpose to serve a purpose,(or lack there of). It`s rare to see someone, at least for me, that you have surprised that goes into the gyrations. Usualy if and when you do , you know you have surprised them. Most of what I see is after 2 or 3 passes and they definitely know your there. It`s when you are saddled up on their 6 and are coming into kill range, they know they have blew it so they release the jumping beans. Don`t you find it strange that the very second they are clear due to the stirring that they have a miraculous recovery in an instant. Most of it I see is not done by newbs, but by vet players. If it is a newb, you will know it if you watch them because they continue to struggle out of control for quite some time.
All in all I would say it is not a big prob. Just some gameing the game as usual. These folks are going to continue doing it one way or the other. No biggy.
Usualy if I see someone stirring and I know they are doing it on purpose, I just leave them in the wake and carry on to greener fields. These type players aren`t much of a threat to anyone or any activity going on in the area. They usualy go on about their way to a nice comfy kill swapping party where they feel secure. Just my 2 cents.

RTSigma · « **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2004, 04:20:08 PM »

I purposely lose control when theres a bogie on my six, doing that has actually decreased the chances I get hit compared to actually doing some ACMs*.

*- I suck at that

Cobra412 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 07, 2004, 04:23:04 PM »

I hit that edge every once in awhile where I go into that nasty snap roll. When it's happening I'm not doing it on purpose. I'd much rather be walking the edge but still under control.

ALF · « **Reply #10 on:** August 07, 2004, 05:49:30 PM »

It really depends on the situation, but in planes like the F6f, an induced spin is an effective defense against an enemy plane who is either very close, or closing fast. Nothing like going from 200 to 50 in next to nothing to throw off someones angle/aim. I also use it to snap roll just one and a half revolutions....so while the enemy begins to react to my left roll, Im already breaking right....booya!

With the new flight model, many players are finding out just how effective forcing the overshoot can be (something that was really missing in AH1). The added flight model fidelity makes it harder to bleed off speed while still keeping a goo target track. Forcing an overshoot is a very valid tactic, and creates an good opportunity to evade or even escape.

The new flight model has also created a new 'trick' in the MA.
Its quite frequent to find a player who knows he is in deep dookie on or near the deck, and have them start playing the 'Im slower than you are' game. Only problem is that it doesnt work against an experienced player, who will either pop you in the first pass and not worry about the overshoot, use his substantial E advantage to go vertical and roll back down on your floundering ride, or just stay with you till theres not enough E to wiggle...BOOM!

Mak333 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 07, 2004, 06:32:15 PM »

I was flying an la7 today and was going up against a 190D9. He came at me head on and i dodge his bullets, he tried going under but i got the best of him on top. He then dropped about 1000ft AGL in the bottom of a canyon type deal and snap rolled and stalled out. He then goes into a flat spin for 5 seconds as I fly away thinking he's gone. He then regains control with the kick of the rudder and some aileron usage and flies away from the furball.

Pretty unrealistic to me. He was in a total flat spin then recovers in a matter of a second.

I understand the difference between a snap roll and completely stick stirring into a stall. But you can tell when someone purposely stalls out just to get you off his tail so he can regain his control and rtb or gain back the alt he lost...

I have no objections against the snap rolls but there are ones out there who constantly stall their planes out when in trouble. - knowing they can regain control very easily.

It also depends on the situation. 2 vs2 or small fights obviously the alt would have the advantage. But in furballs, its way too cheap to stall it out and fly back to base just cus you couldnt shake a spit off your tail.

GScholz · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2004, 07:12:41 PM »

What makes you think real planes are difficult to recover?

xBarrelx · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2004, 08:20:10 PM »

i flew one sortie in a 109g6 one day. i came across 2 so called "stick stirrers." the only advantage it gave them was an extra 45 seconds before i shoved some 30mm up their arse. eventually the stick stirring stops, if thats what it is, due to "Do not move your controls so rapidly" or they get their plane under control, if control loss is their problem.

Warp · « **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2004, 07:18:08 PM »

A snap roll is full elevator and rudder deflection, intentionally. With proper airspeed, the plane will snap around in an off-central axis roll. This will kill your E and produce an effect similar to a barrel roll. In a plane that performs snap rolls well, it is an effective defense against a plane close on your 6.

Recovery from a snap roll is not magic and only takes a second or two. Why anyone thinks otherwise, I don't know. Go to an air show sometime and watch acts like the Christen Eagles, or others. Many of them do snap rolls on takeoff and climb out, in unison.