Author Topic: Aircraft Testing Criteria - Some Test Results  (Read 4657 times)

Offline Creamo

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Aircraft Testing Criteria - Some Test Results
« on: June 11, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
Aircraft Testing Criteria


Does anyone have information regarding testing procedures and guidelines to check accuracy of the various aircraft performance within AH?

The real aircraft when manufactured, or the nme planes when captured went through extensive testing, but that’s not what I’m looking for I don’t believe. I’d like a scaled down protocol for testing the virtual planes in Aces High for authenticity, but something a little less complex or involved/time consuming.

Im looking for GLARING mistakes that confirm discrepancies in the flight models. Certainly Pyro and crew do something to verify the numbers in the code, I’d like guidelines for testing.

The reason I ask is, the N1K2 debate isn’t even a debate anymore; it’s just one long witch-hunt. I can't say I care one way or another, just as long as the tests are done and facts are made, because the squeaking is becoming down right silly.

People have even been arguing that there is no way the Nik should have cannon with so many rounds. It’s getting hard in cases like that to argue, as if it’s somehow not fair in 1945 Japan had armed then that way. Then good old Stopmer3 informed me that you have to squeak to get things like the Nik perked, mentioning it worked with the F4UC. With that new info, I knew this mindless channel one banter will not cease, ever.

Soooo, to address the performance debate, I have been doing aircraft testing (well, trying tests on my own that I think would show performance), to find this elusive “E” retention and super “UFO” zoom climb of the N1K2 George.  Well, mainly the George, but to check other aircraft as well.

     

Thing is, I must be doing something wrong, or this simple test is hiding something like zoom time, or something else that would skew performance. Also, I’m not timing the time to alt in this test, just at what ALT the aircraft reaches, and if it “hangs like a helicopter” or “UFO”.

Here’s what I did.

The Simple Test

I went offline, went to “Medium Alt Field” A4 in the Dueling Arena. I then loaded 4 aircraft - N1K2, 109G10, LA7 and a Yak9-U with 50% fuel, biggest ammo load (no wing mounted cannon for the G10).

After take off, I leveled  at  5K until each aircraft reached it’s top speed of aircraft in full WEP.

Once there, I smoothly pulled the aircraft in a full up climb straight up vertical and set autopilot on “green” to take any control inputs I’d make out of the test. I let it climb, noting at what ALTITUDE each aircraft would stall out. I also noted if there were any abnormal “hanging on the prop” characteristics, but other than that time was not noted. I don’t have a stop watch.   :)

Ok, so that’s just bare essentials testing of climb, but I think it is a good indication of how far a aircraft can climb at it’s level top speed at 5K, and also to find this helicopter/ufo stuff.

Results

Well, aside from the G10 just sky rocketing and me actually starting the climb early with it at 300kts indicated (not actual)  and still accelerating. I found out something interesting.

1.   AH has  cool stall modeling. I got the Yak to almost flat spin me to impact had I not been at 10K.
2.   In this test the N1K2 did not out climb ANY of the aircraft tested.

Conclusion

There need to be more tests, but if I was a betting man, noone, with a stopwatch, official testing method guide from the government or anyone else, is going to find this HUGE error in the N1K2 fm.

As the Typhon was recently tweakes in the roll issue, I have every reason to believe that HTC is not God on aircraft modelling, and there are probably mistakes here and there.

Thing is, people are confusing a great late war aircraft (under 20K anyway), with a good cannon punch, to a uber ride of death that does impossible things. It aint so.

So, can someone get me a better testing criteria so we can put this to rest?

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]

Offline sling322

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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2001, 02:49:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Creamo:

So, can someone get me a better testing criteria so we can put this to rest?

No Creamo, we cant.  Everyone knows that if they whiners didnt have the Niki to whine about then they would just move on to the Spit or the La7 or some other plane with some perceived anomaly that makes it an ubermonster.

After all....everyone knows its the plane that wins fights, not the pilot.    :rolleyes:

Offline Fariz

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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2001, 02:59:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sling322:


No Creamo, we cant.  Everyone knows that if they whiners didnt have the Niki to whine about then they would just move on to the Spit or the La7 or some other plane with some perceived anomaly that makes it an ubermonster.

<shrug> Nothing alike. I flew all the planes in planeset, I flew against all of them. I know what I am saying, niki is the only plane I do not "feel" when flying against it. I keep 3d picture inside my head and can judge e and position of any planes even not seeing it, but with niki I am always wrong. It shall be some explanation.

Fariz.

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2001, 03:14:00 PM »
Oh, and heres the ALT they reached at point of stall. None of the aircraft "hung" there for any unreasonable amount of time, all departed flight.

G10 - 10,700
Yak9-U - 10,500
LA7 - 10,400
N1K2 - 9,700

Now time to get there may be a whole new ballgame, but in the Niki's case in looking for some oddity in zoom climb, even without a stop watch, it was obvious that not a problem.

Im just testing this hanging on the prop and ufo climbing ability Fariz, one test at a time. Explaining your "feelings" will indeed be a problem.  :)

Offline Zigrat

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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
if you really wanted to be useful in the tests of these airplanes heres the test data you would need to take:

1) maximum speed at altitudes
2) stall speed at altitudes
3) tightest steady turn without altitude loss at altitudes (note speed and g load)

the third one is the hard one to get since it requires a skilled pilot. basically, you need to keep the airplane at a constant altitude in a turn and then maintain as high a g load as possible while maintaining that altitude..... its pretty hard   :) but the info is the most useful in "e retention"

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2001, 04:31:00 PM »
I suggest a very simple test:

1. Put aircraft at straight and level at a given altitude and course, say 5000 feet heading north.

2. Apply max throttle/WEP.

3. When a given speed achievable in level flight by all aircraft being compared, say 350 mph, is reached, break as hard as possible into a level turn.

4. Note speed after turning 180 degrees.

High e-retention a/c will maintain speed better, N1K may even accelerate   :D
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Offline Rud3dawg

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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2001, 11:24:00 PM »
The niki in the books i read was said to have a poor rate of climb and still not be able to dive to fast with out comming appart only in AH it climbs at 4k per min at just under 100 mph at 25% fuel and dives at 500 mph then pulls hi g turns at this speed and not only doesn't loose e but DOESN'T FALL APART LIKE IT SHOULD.  IT WASN'T CAPIBLE OF HANDLING SPEEDS AMERICAN PLANES WHERE!!!

only in AH was The N1K2-J that big of a threat and you all begged to have the fuking CHOG perked because "there wern't that many made" and For some reason it NOW out performs the Dhog (because they changed the Dhog's performance.) and to all of you idiots who believe that garbage let me inform you that they were the same diddlyING PLANE!!!!

The CHOG was a Dhog that had internal 50's removed to make more room for 20mm ammo and externally mounted hispano's.  They wern't used as often because hispano's where harder to come by than 50 cals and so was the ammo.
that is out of the mouth of an old f4u-A pilot that said he had flown with the exterior mounted hispano's configuration on his planes for a couple select missions. and that in 1944 the last "varrient" of the f4u-1 the latest d-models had a more power engine than it's pretocessors came out. The official c modle's most noticable diference was the alterations to the cockpit giving the pilot better visablility.  though they also had 4 20mm cannons that they were ORIGINALY manufactured with they were not the only f4u-1's that ever used 20 mm cannons-300 MANUFACTURED in all but that doesn't cound a,b and d models ocasionaly fitted with 20mm's
 

ALSO THE JAPANESE ONLY PRODUCED 423 N1K2-J'S AND HALF OF THEM SAW ONLY ONE FLIGHT-BEING SACRAFICED IN SUICIDE ATTACKS.  and that is striaght out of the book

so perk that damn niki if you want to keep it so unrealistic!

Rudedawg

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2001, 11:30:00 PM »
:rolleyes:

Offline Animal

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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2001, 11:02:00 AM »
Creamo,
The problem is not if HTC modelled the n1k2 right or not. I believe they did it right. I beleve it was historically an EXCELLENT airplane during WW2, and not some cheap crap like some would want to make believe. You are right, the nik was a good airplane.

The Tempest too was a great airplane, and HTC decided to keep it under lock with the perk system.
I believe the N1k2 has comparable performance to the Tempest. Its not AS good, but its better than any other non-perk plane in the arena.

I always hated people whinning about the C-Hog. It was, and is, a mediocre plane. When the C-Hog got perked because of the incessant whinning, many of us feared they (chog pilots) would move to the Nik, and it happened. After all, its a much better plane than the Hog, and its free.


Right now when I fly the P-38 or the P-51, if I see a Nik, 1 on 1, I simply have no choice but to run away. If he is below me, I can try one attack, but if I miss, I have to run away. Even if the nik is below, most of the times he will simply point his nose up and catch up with me. I cannot attempt to hammerhead a nik, that would be suicide, unless its a newby pilot.

Only way I can compete with N1k2 1 on 1 is with the Spitfire, and still they have the ability to run away when I outmaneuver them.

anyways, if the chog is perked, I dont know why the nik isnt. It IS a much better plane than the chog. When the chog was rampant, it was open season for me, it was beautiful how many chogs per sortie I could kill.
If you dont believe me, we have to do a few sessions in the Training Arena. Instead of wasting your time testing the nik flight model, we should just test how many planes can compete with the Nik, I flying the Nik, and you flying every other plane. Or vice-versa.
Remember, numbers are just that. Its real fighting what makes a plane better than the other.

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Animal ]

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2001, 11:36:00 AM »
Plus the niki outclimbs P51s at 28k, remember that Animal wasnt that really fun for you too?  :)

I want it perked too, or the FM e-retention looked at.

Offline Hooligan

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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2001, 12:34:00 PM »
Creamo:

I have something to tell you. Lean a little closer please... Closer.....

<SLAP>

There, have you come to your senses now?  It has been my pleasure to assist you that in realizing that no amount of hard data is likely to dissuade the crowd that perennially whines about these things.

This is how it works:

Whine:  The Niki is too fast…
Answer:  Here is some hard data and it seems to match it pretty close
Whine:  Well, the Niki climbs too well…
Answer:  Look at these climb charts
Whine:  Well, the guns are too good…
Answer:  Ferchrissakes it has 4 cannons and a buttload o ammo
Whine:  Uh, uh.. It must retain E too well, yeah that is it:  It retains E too well!!!

Has anybody ever seen any official test data charts for E-Retention?  Of course not.  It is not obvious or easy to measure accurately and nobody measured it in the real world so even if you did make some accurate measurements there is nothing to compare it to anyway for verification purposes.  So… E-retention whining is relatively safe.  Nobody is going to inconveniently whip out a chart and demonstrate what an idiot you are.  

For some reason a small number of players can’t seem to figure out that light aircraft with a lot of horsepower regain energy very quickly after bleeding it off.  It’s called acceleration.

Until their 109/P-38/Whatever outclimbs/turns/accelerates the N1K by a big enough margin to compensate for their abysmal lack of ACM skill the whining will continue.  If the games gets screwed up enough that they are actually satisfied, then the whining will be replaced by gloating.  Just view the whining as a verification of correct FMs and a preferable alternative to gloating.

And…

If you ever make it LV let me know your coming so I can enlighten you in person.

Hooligan

Offline Animal

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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2001, 12:56:00 PM »
We just had some tests.

Creamo (in several fighters, including Chog, Dora, Spitfire, and 109): 1 victory

Animal (in Nik): like 8 victories.

Owned, squeak.


Either the Nik is an excellent plane in the same level as the tempest, or I am so much better than creamo.


Look, I was not whinning. I dont care about niks, I ignore them in the MA, and my k/d ratio against them is good.

I was just pointing out the fact that the Nik is an awesome fighter and few planes on the planeset can compete with it.

Either unperk the chog like before, or perk the nik too.

I will be happy either way.

Offline Gargoyle

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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
quote:"If he is below me, I can try one attack, but if I miss, I have to run away."

In P51, you need to linger a little up above them (niks) to judge their E-state before starting your dive run.  Wait for them to either make a turn or go into a climb.  Then you can b & z them a good four or five times before having to run and regroup.  If you are getting only one pass, then you are either misjudging their E, or blowing your own E too fast when reclimbing.  Also, faking a dive, pulling up 2000 ft before getting to them, then reperching up high is a great way to get them to kill their energy quickly as they will try and nose up to bring their guns to bear.

If you have alt on them in P51, Nikis are quite fun to fight against  :)  In P51, if you have alt, there is _no_ plane in the arena that you should be afraid of.

Also, in P51, be careful of that altitude range (10-15k ???) where your WEP/supercharger is useless,  you won't get as many b & z passes at those altitudes.

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2001, 01:39:00 PM »
Analmal, the point of this thread was to find glaring FLAWS in the FM of the Niki, that is all.

Not how awful Im am in 1V1, not what your opinion is what should be perked, or not even if you'll get a job ever and pop the hind tit out of your mouth.

We have had one claim that a Niki accelerates in a 180 hard G turn, a suggestion for a super pilot to test E retention, a claim a Niki out climbes a P51 at 28K?! (Grionhurts humor..hardy-f*kin-har), and no proof of anything except what I did to dispell the "Helocpter/hanging on prop ufo myth."


No wonder you and Glasses are brothers.

Still no proof, still no HTC input.

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]