question for the vets

[Furball]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Me thinks that the sarcasm and wit in Furballs post went zooming over freedom1's head.
 

I think the fact that it says 'Furball' on the left next to each of my posts went zooming over freedom's head.

Originally posted by freedom1
sorry furball dont know why i called u morph.   i was thinking about you march stats and how many times u flew the so called dweeb nik1 my apologies

career stats As i said, i learnt the game in La7 and Hurricane and i have always had the same handle since i was a noob.  I also love the Spit IX because i am British and very biased.  I have flown the nik before, mainly as base defence with porked fuel, and vulcher HOing  so no, i am not perfect but i never claimed to be.

[hogenbor]

Karnak is absolutely right.

Strange thing is that I absolutely suck in the N1K2. I've evolved a style of play that does not suit the N1K2 well. Still, by all means, fly it if you like it!

If you manage to survive a bit and get kills, PERSIST with the plane you have the most trouble with and learn to fight with its strengths. Good examples:

F4U1 : Horrible acceleration and climb, nasty stall, hard to land, views limited but extremely deadly with lots of E, lots of ammo, good at high speed, tough as nails.

Bf-109G6 : A bit slow and not too maneuverable, limited ammo load, terrible compression problems, poor views, not that tough, extremely hard to aim 30mm cannon but very good climb and acceleration, benign stall characterictics, brutish one-ping-kill 30mm cannon

[Morpheus]

I think Freedom needs to learn how to type a sentece right before he criticizes on how others play the game.

Really it makes no difference what one fly's in this game. So long as he/she is enjoying the game.

Me? I'll fly whatever I feel in the mood to fly. I enjoy learning/flying every plane in the game. And after over 2 years, one of the most important things I've learned is that I, have much to learn.

I have seen people do things with the Nik that would blow your mind. And by the time you are done picking your chin up off the desk you are dead. Then I've out turned Niks in one single turn with my 38. If you fly the Niky well, well then who is anyone to judge? There isn't one plane in the game that I would lable an "easy mode" plane. I call the 38 an easy mode plane because after flying it for so long and learning how it flys, it does seem a bit easy at times.

btw Freedom1, I'm not sure if you are new or you're just an old guy with a new shades acct, none the less let me give you a little bit of advice. If you think stats, score, rank, k/d ect are tell tale signs of how someone flys and how well they fly think again. I've said it before a thousand times. Rank means absolutly squat when it comes to 1v1 pilot ability. The only thing a low rank means in the MA is that they know how to cherry pick and do it well. And I know Hitech loves it when I say this but I'll say it anyways. Low Rank means you know how to game the game.

With that being said, I've said enough.

Adios.

[Murdr]

Here ya go Morph

Originally posted by hitech
And since when did playing the game as designed become "gaming the game"?


HiTech

[octospider0]

thanks for the replys.  I got a new stick today, the X45 and it looks like I need to learn all over again how to fly.  But, I have been trying some others.  I would like to find a plane I can work in thats CV able, currently working the F6f.

Odi

[jay1988]

Is the hurrican a dweeb plane? Thats my most favorite plane

[Kweassa]

Frankly, to tell you the truth, everybody has a sort of a double standard on this issue. While they might say one thing in the forums, their actual response during the fight is sometimes very different.

 I'm not saying that the opinions stated above are hypocrisy. I think it's a natural thing - as no one really retains a single-minded, centralized principle when it comes down to evaluating a certain plane, and the positions people maintain tend change upon instances and situations.

 ....

 The most important aspect of such planes is that while their raw performance may not necessarily be high, still their certain specialized capabilites are highly adaptable to the environment the MA has to offer. This often exceeds its effectiveness as a fighter more than its actual fame in real life.

 For instance, the Spitfire and N1K2 are planes with very high maneuverability and excellent firepower. While their speed is not inspiring, its really not a 'slow' plane. More or less average.

 Now, some might say that the Spit or N1K2 is just another plane with weaknesses - especially in the survival rate. However, typically in the MA, offensive capability is often much more important than defensive capabilites.

 One can use his SA, or take advantage of certain situations to cope with low survivability. However, the same rarely holds true for planes with weak offensive capabilities.

 In short, when a plane sucks in speed, the pilot can ensure its survival by flying in a certain limited situation. However, when a plane sucks in maneuverability or firepower(even worse, both!), no amount of SA or situation can help him.

 In other words, a N1K2 or Spitfire pilot can choose to fly with numbers, or at great alt advantages to make up for its shortcomings. But when it sees an opportunity it rarely misses it. What it latches on to, it usually kills.

 However, in the case of a 109 or a P-47, no matter how much the pilot flies inside a horde, or grabs a lot of alt, ultimately, the killing blow is very hard to obtain - what usually happens is a 109 or a P-47 works its prettythang off to pin an enemy plane down low, and then a Spitfire or a N1K2 finishes it off.

 ...
 
 So, the 'dweeb' comment starts to latch behind planes and pilots, who usually fly it in only certain situations, and actively seeks out only such situations to fly in. It becomes frustrating for the opponent in that he rarely ever meets the enemy in the circumstances he wants.

 Like in such instances where you see a certain pilot - you always see him around in vulches, or with huge altitude advantage. You think back upon in the instances you've met him before and realize the only time you ever seen him is inside a huge enemy horde, during a vulch, or somewhere overhead. In those many situations and battles the MA has to offer, you never, ever have seen him defending an endangered field, flying some other plane, risking a dangerous situation, coming low to help his own team mates, and etc etc.

 In terms of SA its just very excellent management,. But as a game of mutual enjoyment - seeking the thrill of the fight itself, it's quite hard to respect the plane/pilot as he is.

 ...

 Personally, I know a few guys. Their rank is not high, but as a fighter pilot their skills are excellent. These guys can be seen in many situations. Sometimes, while they do try to survive overall, they still have the guts to up from a vulched field and try to break the enemy vulch. They try to help friendlies in trouble. They're also excellent opponents in 1vs1 duels. These guys are fun to be around, fight against, and whether win or lose its always a great game playing with them.

 I know some other guys. Their score is in top 50s in fighter ranks. But they always fly in massive hordes. They always search for vulches. They are always the highest plane around. You never see them defending anything, or helping anyone. They don't respond to anything else, but their own scores and kill numbers.

 Now, as a community and a fellow AH gamer, who would you respect?

 If you have the group of pilots which I think you'd choose, then you understand the difference between a 'good pilot' and a 'dweeb pilot'. The latter group of guys are the ones who are categorized as 'dweebs' - and the planes they fly, and the situation they fly it in, are usually very predictable.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Murdr
Here ya go Morph

heh I think that reply may actually be to a statment I made...?

I know HT did say something to me about this once.

I guess its all in how you see things. The game that is and how to play it...

Gaming the game to me is taking up a bomber, 100 miles away from any enemy and porking a factory over and over again to build bomber rank.

It vulching.

Its spawn camping.

Its flyin around a base and shooting at hangers to build up your attack hit %.

99% of these people who live by these above things will not engage in a fight simply becuase they either do not know how to fight, or because they are afraid to die which will impact their rank.

When you stop caring about what others think of you, how low that number is next to your name on the roster page... Then and only then do you realize there is more to this game stats.

[Murdr]

heh I think that reply may actually be to a statment I made...?
I think he was replying to DMF in that post
taking up a bomber, 100 miles away from any enemy and porking a factory over and over again
If sucessful increases the regeneration time by a factor of four for that strat in the affected zone.
It vulching.
Kind of counterproductive to let them up if your trying to take the base.
Its spawn camping.
Prevents ground assults on your field
Its flyin around a base and shooting at hangers
I thought damaging/destroying field objects was part of an attack run?

Just saying these things are productive to the war effort, and accounted for in the game as HT designed it.

Also where HT piped into the conversation, I was trying to point out to DMF that the better pilot could outrank the 'poser' that your describing at will with very little effort.


When you stop caring about what others think of you, how low that number is next to your name on the roster page... Then and only then do you realize there is more to this game stats.

Agreed

[Furball]

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
The only thing a low rank means in the MA is that they know how to cherry pick and do it well.

Thats the part i disagree with.  Just cherry picking wont get you rank.

[Morpheus]

I was trying to point out to DMF that the better pilot could outrank the 'poser' that your describing at will with very little effort.

Couldnt have said it better.

Thats the part i disagree with. Just cherry picking wont get you rank.

very true furb.

K/D, Kills per hour, Kills per sortie ect all are huge factors in getting low rank.

All of which are very easily attained over a furball, cherry picking to your hearts content. I wont lie, I've done it, I do it. If a plane is meant to be flow as an E fighter I'll fly it that way. But I'll also (and find it much more enjoyable) fly an E fighter as a turn fighter for the joy and challenge of being able to beat the better turn fighter.

Just what planes are classified as turn fighters is for another topic. But thats how I feel about the whole thing.

[Urchin]

I completely and utterly disagree with the "It's the pilot, not the plane" theory.  It is crap, doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny.  Does the pilot "matter"?  To a certain degree, yes.  I'd say the ratio is probably 80/20 plane/pilot.

 Put two pilots that know the relative strengths and weaknesses in two different planes, it becomes 90/10.  Put a crappy pilot in a good plane and it becomes "How badly can I screw up before my plane can't pull me out of it?".

"Dweeb planes" are the planes that do the work for the pilot.  The label "dweeb plane" is contextual, in that in some situations a plane will do all the work for a pilot, and in some other situations it doesn't have the performance vis a vis the enemy plane to save the pilot when he screws up.

Another definition, and one that I favor, is the "dweeb plane" is one that makes all the other planes relatively pointless to fly.  Why fly a 109F, when a Spit 9 (or Nik) does everything better?  More firepower, faster, climbs better, turns better, etc.  Why fly the 109F at all?  Quite a few of the planes that are "rare" are completely overshadowed by the Spit 9/ Nik.  

All of the LW planes, with the exception of the 109G10 and 190D9, suffer from the fact that while they are no faster than the Spit 9/ Nik, they also have less firepower and are much worse in a fight. The Ki-61/F4F/F6F/P47/P40/F4U (with the exception of the C-hog, which has a firepower advantage) suffer from the same thing.  The P-38 has found a niche as a suicide bomber (praise Allah), if it didn't have a payload as large as it does, it would go relatively unused.   While the A6MX has better turn performance than the Spit and Nik, it is much more frail and lacks the "one shot kill" firepower, so it goes relatively unused.  C202 doesn't have the firepower to be competitive, nor does the 205, and even if they did they are still out-performed by the Spit/Nik, so they go relatively unused.  

The sole exception to this rule is the spit 5.  I think many people that had been in the Spit 9/Nik found it to hard to kill someone from a "nuetral" start that was also in a Spit 9/Nik, so they decided to fly the Spit 5.  While the Spit 5 is slower and doesn't climb as well, it turns better, and more importantly gives up nothing in the firepower department.  This means that once they sucker a Spit 9 or Niki into a turnfight, they can rack the stick back into their stomach and still have the one shot kill capability that is so important in the MA.

So that leaves us with the planes that are faster than the Nik/Spit 9.  The 190D9 and 109G10 are basically gimped versions of the La7, which would explain why they are about 1/3rd as popular.  The Typhoon has found favor amoung die-hard cherrypickers (with 4 Hizookas, it has the most firepower possible in AH), and has a strong following amoung building battlers that really don't want to fight people.  The P-51 camp is slowly losing followers to the La7, since the La7 is superior in every area of performance.  It will never really become "rare" because of its historical appeal to so many people, but the diehard "min/max" crowd will stick with the La7 because it offers performance superior to every plane faster than the Spit9/nik, combined with the speed to escape from any situation the pilot can get into.

Man, my post isn't quite as long as Kweassa's, but it is getting up there.  Perhaps the best illustration I can give is an experience I had in the Ma a while ago.  I was flying around, got into a great fight with a guy in an La-7.  I was in a 109F-4, we went round and round in a very well flown, stall-speed, knife fight.  I still believe he probably would have won, except he hit a mountain that I managed to creep over at about 95 mph.  I toss a for a good fight, he tosses one back.  

Later, I run into a Spitfire and a 109, both higher than me.  Spitfire was a Spit 5, 109 was just bore n zooming so I never got a decent look at him.  109 dings me as I'm fighting the Spit, Spit kills me.  Lo and behold, it is the same guy I just fought in the La7.  He tosses out a , I ignore it.  He PM's me with, "what, no when I wax you?".  I replied "no, I only after a good fight".  The guy started flying a plane that had superior performance to mine, and lost.  So he comes back in a plane with even better performance, and with a friend.  I imagine the guy hasn't seen the inside of any plane other than a La-7/Spit since he started playing.  He picks what he will fly based purely on what kind of advantages he needs to make sure he won't die.  

I don't have any respect for people that do that, and since the "Big 4" (or 5, depending on who you ask) offers such a gigantic performance advantage over the rest of the plane-set, it is safe to assume that the vast majority of people who fly those planes fly them purely out of a desire to have the biggest performance "edge" they can possibly get.  Thus, the "dweeb pilot", makes the "dweeb plane".

[Karnak]

Urchin,

Loooong post.


Ok, I think you're off on some points.

One thing is that I have noticed a dramatic shift in the top four since AH2 was released.  Here is a top 10 list for the past 10 tours:

Tour 45:
Spitfire Mk IX 34053 32338 1.053 10.96
P-51D 28916 31837 0.908 9.31
N1K2 28185 24703 1.141 9.07
La-7 26236 27948 0.939 8.44
Typhoon IB 15584 11396 1.367 5.02  
Spitfire V 14800 16265 0.910 4.76      
SeaFire 12708 13566 0.937 4.09      
Fw 190D-9 12560 8087 1.553 4.04      
Bf 109G-10 11947 9586 1.246 3.85      
P-38L 11854 15346 0.772 3.82

Tour 46:
Spitfire Mk IX 32488 32708 0.993 10.92
N1K2 28707 25075 1.145 9.65
La-7 28462 27429 1.038 9.56
P-51D 25708 30973 0.830 8.64
Typhoon IB 15233 11050 1.379 5.12  
Spitfire V 12395 14564 0.851 4.17      
P-38L 12024 16123 0.746 4.04      
Bf 109G-10 11852 9034 1.312 3.98      
SeaFire 11497 12133 0.948 3.86      
Fw 190D-9 11152 7536 1.480 3.75


Tour 47:
Spitfire Mk IX 38622 38054 1.015 10.96
La-7 34711 34433 1.008 9.85
N1K2 33175 29367 1.130 9.42
P-51D 29524 34198 0.863 8.38
Typhoon IB 17413 12544 1.388 4.94  
Spitfire V 17056 17874 0.954 4.84
SeaFire 16982 16745 1.014 4.82      
P-38L 14840 18909 0.785 4.21      
Fw 190D-9 12659 7939 1.595 3.59      
F6F-5 12167 12841 0.948 3.45

Tour 48:
Spitfire Mk IX 36392 34705 1.049 11.21
La-7 32151 31196 1.031 9.90
N1K2 28234 25966 1.087 8.70
P-51D 26898 29570 0.910 8.28
P-38L 14792 17842 0.829 4.56  
Typhoon IB 14730 11426 1.289 4.54      
SeaFire 14265 15137 0.942 4.39      
Spitfire V 14090 15760 0.894 4.34      
Fw 190D-9 13669 9438 1.448 4.21      
F6F-5 11553 12812 0.902 3.56

Tour 49:
Spitfire Mk IX 33255 32207 1.033 11.25
La-7 29546 27773 1.064 10.00
N1K2 26653 25459 1.047 9.02
P-51D 25674 28643 0.896 8.69
Spitfire V 15799 18349 0.861 5.35  
P-38L 15568 16877 0.922 5.27      
Typhoon IB 12725 9566 1.330 4.31      
Fw 190D-9 11656 7766 1.501 3.94      
Bf 109G-10 9846 7825 1.258 3.33      
SeaFire 9696 10078 0.962 3.28

Tour 50:
Spitfire Mk IX 33717 33391 1.010 10.31
La-7 31700 30331 1.045 9.70
N1K2 30399 28533 1.065 9.30
P-51D 27985 31011 0.902 8.56
SeaFire 16347 16273 1.005 5.00  
P-38L 16309 17632 0.925 4.99      
Spitfire V 15282 17508 0.873 4.67      
Typhoon IB 13642 10546 1.294 4.17      
F6F-5 13029 14125 0.922 3.99      
Fw 190D-9 10888 7802 1.396 3.33

Tour 51:
Spitfire Mk IX 36441 35240 1.034 10.80
La-7 33194 32365 1.026 9.84
N1K2 32653 30352 1.076 9.68
P-51D 25827 30249 0.854 7.66
SeaFire 16034 16123 0.994 4.75  
Spitfire V 15971 19041 0.839 4.73      
P-38L 14784 17445 0.847 4.38      
Typhoon IB 13665 10289 1.328 4.05      
F6F-5 12902 13951 0.925 3.82      
Bf 109G-10 11766 9350 1.258 3.49

Tour 52:
La-7 26498 25026 1.059 9.86
Spitfire Mk IX 26311 26220 1.003 9.79
N1K2 24928 24131 1.033 9.28
P-51D 21555 24320 0.886 8.02
Spitfire V 14386 16416 0.876 5.35
SeaFire 13654 13224 1.033 5.08      
P-38L 11910 14177 0.840 4.43      
F6F-5 11375 11805 0.964 4.23      
Typhoon IB 9587 7785 1.231 3.57      
Fw 190D-9 8804 6001 1.467 3.28

Tour 53:
N1K2 23700 21996 1.077 10.64
Spitfire Mk IX 23067 21961 1.050 10.36
La-7 21785 20761 1.049 9.78
P-51D 17521 20448 0.857 7.87
Spitfire V 13957 15352 0.909 6.27
P-38L 11915 13963 0.853 5.35      
Fw 190D-9 9056 5700 1.589 4.07      
SeaFire 7928 7717 1.027 3.56      
Typhoon IB 7720 6543 1.180 3.47      
Bf 109G-10 7113 6129 1.161 3.19

Tour 54:
La-7 26384 22958 1.149 10.84
P-51D 22488 24866 0.904 9.24
N1K2 19542 18820 1.038 8.03
Spitfire Mk IX 17181 18553 0.926 7.06
Spitfire V 16447 17866 0.921 6.76  
P-38L 14218 18583 0.765 5.84      
Fw 190D-9 11793 7669 1.538 4.85      
Typhoon IB 10925 7638 1.430 4.49      
SeaFire 9320 9833 0.948 3.83      
Bf 109G-10 9017 7064 1.276 3.71


What I think we see here is the La-7 slowly making it's way to the top spot, which has been held by the Spitfire Mk IX for years.  Finally in Tour 52 the La-7 makes the top spot.

Then, boom, AH2 is released and throws things akilter in Tour 53.  Initially players seemed to go for the ammo load of the N1K2 as a method of dealling with the new hit detection model.  The Spitfire Mk IX remained a trusty standby as people were so used to it.

By Tour 54 players have adjusted to the new gunnery somewhat and learned that spray and pray doesn't work very well any more.  Having the speed to get your guns close enough counts for more and fuel range now matters.  In the space of three tours the Spitfire Mk IX has been bumped from the #1 spot that it occupied for years to #4, behind the N1K2 which offers the fuel range that the Spitfire does not.  People are also realizing that the Spitfire Mk V is only slightly slower than the Spitfire Mk IX now.  The Speed of the Fw190D-9 is being noticed and it is higher on the list than I can ever recall seeing a German fighter.

Players seem to be realizing that fast planes make better fighters.

Speed is the reason that I have never felt the Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2 were nearly so threatening as the P-51D, La-7, Typhoon, Fw190D-9 or even P-38L.

I noticed that you lumped a lot of aircraft in at the same speed with the N1K2 and Spitfire Mk IX.  I have always found the P-38L, Bf109G-2 and Fw190A-5 to be markedly faster than the Spitfire Mk IX and N1K2.  I think most players are aware of more than two or three general speed grades.

[Urchin]

Well, I tend to group em according to "fast" and "not so fast".  There are not that many planes in the "fast" category, I typically only include the P51, 190D9, 109G10, La7, and Typhoon.  The La5 and 190A8 are the fastest of the "not so fast" group.  With a head start, they can get away from any of the other "not so fast" planes, but they won't get away from any of the "fast" group.  For the perk planes, the F4U4 and Tempest go in the "fast" group, and the rest go in the "not so fast" group.  

Any of the "fast" planes can get away from any plane in the game, given a good starting position.  The La7 can get away from any plane, from any starting position.

I think the decline in the Spit 9 population is because a fairly sizable number of "dedicated" Spit 9 pilots have switched to the spit 5 for a couple reasons.  

First, neither plane is exactly fast.  The Spit 9 will keep up with any of the "not so fast" plane unless the other guy is just running with no interest in fighting at all.  The Spit 5 won't, but both planes can keep someone from running if the fight gets slow just by dint of their guns.

Second, the vast majority of people in the MA can't tell one version of the Spit from another.  This would include practically all the people flying the spit/nik.  So if they get into a fight from a nuetral start, they are at an immediate advantage.

The MA is becoming more polarized than ever, you have people that fly timidly in the La-7/P-51/run90/09, and you have people that fight in Spits/Niks.  A person in a spit 9 isnt going to catch that girl that just bore n zooms in the above set, but they will have an advantage over some other Joe Schmoe in a Spit or Nik that sees a "spit" icon and comes in to fight.  So they don't give up any meaningful 'edge' by switching.  Giving up that little bit of speed and climb performance is worth getting the extra turning performance.

As people get more used to the new gunnery, I don't see the Niki maintaining as many kills as it does now.  I think most people that fly the Niki now will switch over to the Spit 9 because it now offers superior performance, whereas in AH 1 they were virtual clones (choosing between ammo load, or one hit killing power).  It may still have more kills than the Spit 9, but that is just because the Spit 9 "community" is split between the spit 5 and the spit 9 right now.  I actually think the spit 5 will become more popular than both the spit 9 and niki, in the future.

And yea, that was a hellacious long post, I didn't realize how long till I went back and looked at it.