P-38 vs. Spitfire

[WldThing]

I dont remember fighting you that often but who knows,  my mind might be a bit out of wack   ..  Anywho,  how about you try to do a loop off the Runway with a p-38 and tell me how succesful you were,  and then try it in the Niki and tell me P-38 is still a better looper.

[Urchin]

I'm with Wld on this one... I don't see anyone in a P-38 beating a competent stick in a Niki or Spit 9 from a Co-E merge.  I'd give the P-38 slightly better odds if it started out with an E advantage, but not much,

[senna]

Well I agree that a 38 doesnt have the stall problems and is very agile if flown right with flaps etc...  however it still has the weight problems.  If you turn in circles in one direction with a spit spiriling down, the spit will get you eventually. Max Ive ever circled with a spit was 4-5 cicles for an average opponent spiriling down to the deck. In a situation where 38 vs spit shoulder to shoulder trying to gain angles doing the weave after falling from altitude theres more of a chance. However I've seen spits take it into the verticle at near stall just before they are out of E. They go up and barrel roll flip trying to cause one to shoot pass. My defense is a hard break and we each go opposite directions. Spits accel like crap from low speed. So my point was that the spit guy has the option of pulling back and going verticle because he is lighter and has a lower wing loading.

[senna]

Finishing my beer then its off to bed. Anyways the reason why spitfires go down is because most of them are sucky. Only a handfull of ah spit pilots are worth their 14.99 a month. Flying spitfires for a long time will make you retarded.

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by senna
Well I agree that a 38 doesnt have the stall problems and is very agile if flown right with flaps etc...  however it still has the weight problems.  If you turn in circles in one direction with a spit spiriling down, the spit will get you eventually. Max Ive ever circled with a spit was 4-5 cicles for an average opponent spiriling down to the deck. In a situation where 38 vs spit shoulder to shoulder trying to gain angles doing the weave after falling from altitude theres more of a chance. However I've seen spits take it into the verticle at near stall just before they are out of E. They go up and barrel roll flip trying to cause one to shoot pass. My defense is a hard break and we each go opposite directions. Spits accel like crap from low speed. So my point was that the spit guy has the option of pulling back and going verticle because he is lighter and has a lower wing loading.

Theres a prob right there, u take the fight up not down

[DipStick]

Originally posted by senna
Flying spitfires for a long time will make you retarded.

Yes, I'm telling Levi you said that!

[senna]

Originally posted by X2Lee
Theres a prob right there, u take the fight up not down

X2-lee, this thread was about turn & burn fighting not boom & zoom or energy fighting. In turn and burn, you turn alot and so thus burn off energy. In doing so, both opponents usually loose altitude in order to regain energy. There are no turn and burn fights that gain altitude. Once you start to gain altitude, you are energy fighting. When you control the altitude, you are boom & zooming.

[senna]

Originally posted by DipStick
Yes, I'm telling Levi you said that!

Hey dipstick, havent had the chance to fly with you yet. Been out of ah for a while now since I broke my controls. Anyways, yeah Levi is a good spit pilot. After I first encountered him, I later told Dex that he has met his match.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by senna
X2-lee, this thread was about turn & burn fighting not boom & zoom or energy fighting. In turn and burn, you turn alot and so thus burn off energy. In doing so, both opponents usually loose altitude in order to regain energy. There are no turn and burn fights that gain altitude. Once you start to gain altitude, you are energy fighting. When you control the altitude, you are boom & zooming.

X2Lee is correct, keep the turn fight in the vertical plane.  The P-38 has the ability to do this because the flaps generate quite a bit of lift.  Together with the low stall speed of the P-38 and its handling at low speed, this allows the P-38 to put the fight in the vertical plane.   There's a film that I have that Leviathn had made showing how the P-38 can loop endlessly with just using the flaps at low speeds.  

When in a turn fight with a plane like the Spitfire or N1K2, I always try to keep it in the vertical plane as much as possible.  This allows me to take advantage the weakness of these planes at low speed.  These planes are single engine planes which naturally have torque and at low and high speeds it becomes a liability for these planes.  The P-38 does not have this weakness because of the counter-rotating propellers, which gives this plane a slight advantage that you can exploit.  I think both of those films I posted in this thread show what x2Lee was referring to.

The Spitfire and the N1K2 are good turn fighting planes but like all planes, they have their weaknesses also.  It has been from my experience that it's best to turn fight these planes at speeds below 150mph IAS and above 275+mph IAS.  Getting in a turn fight with either of those planes between those speeds will mean death for the P-38 as both of those planes will easily out turn you.  The Spitfire and the N1K2 turn best at medium speeds and a P-38 pilot should avoid getting into a turn fight at those speeds with either of those planes.


And as always, I'm not saying this is a 100% way of defeating a Spitfire or a N1K2.  These are just the tactics that I use when I'm those particular situations.  YMMV though.


ack-ack

[senna]

Take up the P-38 and get into some stall fights with Spitfires and N1K2s. And when I mean stall fights, I mean real stall fights were your speed in the P-38 will never get higher than 120mphIAS and frequently is below 100mphIAS for most of the fight. A Spitfire or a N1K2 will start to stall out as soon as they dip below 100mphIAS, mostly due to the torque at those speeds. While you will still be able to maneuver at those speeds, the N1K2 or Spitfire will be forced to break off and try to extend to regain energy. Basically, I'm just taking the stuff Lowell discovered when he dueled that Spitfire and applying it in here.

How do you go verticle when your on the edge of stalling?

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by senna
How do you go verticle when your on the edge of stalling?

Now, it wouldn't be called Stall Fighting if you didn't stall out sometimes would it?  Stall loops and stalling Yo-Yo's are two examples.  Don't be afraid to stall the P-38 in a turn fight, it recovers quickly and gently and stalls at a lower speed than Spitfire or a N1K2.

These tactics also require some level of experience as you really have to know how to use the flaps, throttle and rudders and be able to work them all together simultaneously.  


ack-ack

[senna]

If your near stalling the only way you can go up is if you point your nose down and trade accelerationa nd distance for some altitude. Energy conservation, it aint free. During this time the fight is droping altitude, your slight zoom is relative.

[senna]

And I'll add something that most who play ah for a while would know. If your in a stall fight and your in front and you go up, chances are the guy chasing with shoot you.

[senna]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
These tactics also require some level of experience as you really have to know how to use the flaps, throttle and rudders and be able to work them all together simultaneously.  


ack-ack

ack, I guess we have different philosfies when it comes to flying. Thought I would share my own experiences but I guess you have the stall fighting with spitfires all figured out. Ive tangled with you in the ma before and your always a good fight.

 

[Ack-Ack]

In the P-38, if you are somewhere between 115mph and 100mph IAS with 3/4 flaps deployed, you can pull into a loop and as your plane starts to stall as it begins the top part of the loop, deploy the last notch of flaps and this will cause the nose to swing down, bringing you over the top of the loop.  

If you deploy the last notch of flaps at the correct time, your plane will do more of a flip with the nose pointing straight down instead of a loop.  If you do it early or too late, you run the risk of wallowing on your back as long as it takes you to kick the rudders to swing that nose down.  So doing it early or late will most likely result in your death.  

When my nose is pointing down again, I'll raise one notch of flaps back to 3/4 deployed.  If the maneuver is done correctly and time right, it can lead to a very nice shot opportunity on the other plane as they try to maneuver to match you.  If at this time I have a shot, I'll take it.  If I don't have a shot and the other plane continues to turn, I usually do another stall loop or sometimes I'll go into a High Yo-Yo and as I near the top of the Yo-Yo, stall my plane out and roll it over, again deploying my last notch of flaps as I near the top and start the beginning of the Yo-Yo and raising it immediately after my nose swings downwards again.

Throttle control is also important as when you go into the stall loops, I have the throttle at 100% with WEP on and then as I start the loop, I chop throttle and deploy the last notch of flaps to full.  When the nose swings down, I slam the throttles to full, hit WEP and raise  flaps to 3/4.  This allows me to recover with minimul loss of altitude and recover enough energy that I can perform another stall loop if necessary.


ack-ack