1.3K Kills...

[RAM]

Well whine time (Joke)

Not a whine, really,but I find awful that after a fite with 2 Spits and one 205 in my lone 109G-10 I try to extend and I get killed from 1.3K in my FE (900yds in the guy's FE). I know that a spit's 20mm round can rip a wing like it did to mine...but hey...I cant believe in hits from 900yds in a 109!!!! the 109 was a LITTLE tiny aircraft...and I wasnt stand in the sky, I was pulling and pushing all time (in part to get the help of the 0G acceleration).

Pyro, Hitech, and all the HTC staff.. you have a very nice simulator here...but you need to put something to make these hits very very difficult. Is not the first time it happens to me...but for sure the most annoying one. Sad I have no film on this   I wish I had it...

Hope you can do something to avoid these kills...

thanks in advance


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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Maniac]

Agree 100%

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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

 
   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Ram, when you extend are you extending straight and level?

I fly the Pony, which is similar to the G10 in this respect except its much much larger, and I can't ever remember getting hit at such a range.

What I do is use a very gentle 1G turn on my extensions, and I can't remember the last time someone got me that way.

If you want to work together sometime on it, Im willing to meet you in the TA.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[RAM]

Negative, I was going with a little angle upwards, heading for home (I had an elevator and one aileron gone from the fite before, and low fuel status). I was pushing and pulling softly all time to accelerate and also cuz I saw tracers...I remember that I also banked a little to the left to see what was behind me...so no I wasnt static, I was extending and going up (wise thing to do in 109 anyway <G> )

And anyway, stable or not, what I'm trying to say is that such hits were nearly impossible in real life...and that the accuracy must degrade a lot on long distance shooting. 900 yds are A LOT (and this is too for the bomber's guns) to hit a plane...

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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Hangtime]

RAM; I've seen posted here and other places in print reports of real life takedowns from 1500 yards or better.

If that was a spit on you; and you had already recieved damage; it is possible that u were just one 'ping' from catastrophic failure on your plane.

Further; I've only mananged one kill from above 1000 yards; and only been killed on two occasions from that range. An infinitly small percentage considering the number of sorties I've flown; deaths recieved and given...

And lastly; I can recall an incident involving a G10 on my butt; better than 1k back being flown by TOWD, and using only his MG's he was able to knock the tail off my erraticly manuvering P51. It happens.. rarely; and considering the vagarys of the net; seems to be pretty well in line with real-life expectations.

Don't get me wrong; I have plenty of beefs with the Gun/Cannon Modeling; but frankly, I've never seen anything better than what we have either.  

Salute; Sir!

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   TDY from Warbirds Pale Horses Squadron

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Toad]

I guess the only thing to do is take these guys to a range.

I know of a fellow that will let you shoot a .50 MG as long as you can afford the ammo.

Let's take YOUR smallest car and park it about 1500 yards away from the gun. Heck, make it 2000 yards! I'll buy the ammo...you have nothing to worry about...hits are impossible at that range, right?  

Ballistics is ballistics guys. The rounds will go much farther than 1k. MUCH FARTHER.
Accept it, it's a fact.

If an AH "good shot" is willing to hose away most of his ammo load at you, even at 900 yds you're probably going to take pings. Maybe even enough to kill you outright or finish off earlier damage.

The percentage of hits at long range is pretty low. Some ammo loads are pretty high. If someone shoots 800 rnds of 20mm at you from an F4U, just a 1% hit ratio is going to ruin your day.

I return you to your previously scheduled whine.  

[Extreme]

This reminds me of the ol' WB days when you could ping up to 1000 yrds.  Lots of people whinged and whined and now they got the gunnery in WB.

I flew WB from 2.0 to 2.71 but really lost interest after WB 2.5.  It wasn't all coz of the gunnery, but it played a big part in my departure late last year.

Just MHO.

Ex.

[RAM]

To Hangtime:
Well you say it happened only once to you...It happened more than once to me..in fact more that five times that I can recall...Yes, hits are possible...yes a 20mm is powerful...but no, I cant believe that I have so many kills that way...(or maybe is that I attract shoots    )...I still believe that the gunnery must be turned a little down...I agree the guns modelling are amazing, HT has done a nice job here...and I agree that ballistically those kills are probable. I only say that in RL ballistics arent all and that must be modelled somehow...

for Toad...I repeat Its not a whine,, it is only what I believe it is somewhat unrealisitic. I understand how ballistics work. I understand what you say about the car...and no I wont put my car at 1500 yds...maybe if you shoot from a jeep moving at 200mph and you let me move at 300 mph, then I let you do it    . you will make me a couple holes yes...but nothing more, and nothing disastrous...and that in a car...2D. Planes move in 3D. MUCH harder to hit a 3d moving plane than a 2d moving car. And of course no comparison possible with a immovile car sitting 1500yds away.
Your point is that ballistically is possible. I agree. But still not probable. I agree. But I still say that 20mm rounds at 900yds shoot from a 200mph moving (more or less) spit to a 300mph  (more,not less I remember my speed quite well   ) 109 moving away and not in a stable way must be MUCH more difficult to hit than a 50cal. and a 50 is VERY difficult to hit at those ranges...so...

Your gunnery range example is good,toad, but not aplicable. Much more things are playing here apart from ballistics.


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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

   


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-16-2000).]

[CANNON]

 Ram. Havent you heard. The pixies sprinkled magic dust on those 2 lone 20mm. If you dont belive me try to find one that AVOIDS an HO.

[funked]

I have my doubts about the hit detection.  Sure seems like shooting watermelons.

[BigJim]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
I guess the only thing to do is take these guys to a range.

I know of a fellow that will let you shoot a .50 MG as long as you can afford the ammo.

Let's take YOUR smallest car and park it about 1500 yards away from the gun. Heck, make it 2000 yards! I'll buy the ammo...you have nothing to worry about...hits are impossible at that range, right?    

Ballistics is ballistics guys. The rounds will go much farther than 1k. MUCH FARTHER.
Accept it, it's a fact.

If an AH "good shot" is willing to hose away most of his ammo load at you, even at 900 yds you're probably going to take pings. Maybe even enough to kill you outright or finish off earlier damage.

The percentage of hits at long range is pretty low. Some ammo loads are pretty high. If someone shoots 800 rnds of 20mm at you from an F4U, just a 1% hit ratio is going to ruin your day.

I return you to your previously scheduled whine.  

Hey Toad I will do that with one small change you mount the fifty on a truck and drive 60 miles an hour and I will drive my Van at 60 miles an hour and evade   bet you don't hit much at 2K while we are both moving  


 

BigJim

[Minotaur]

  ---> No Sniveling! <---  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[-towd_]

howdy i was the other spit in that fight and can witness all stands as stated by both partys but the other spit pilot ( whos name evads me but is a hell of a shot in any case) pointed out that hits ar cumulative and that he had shot the toejam out of you earlyer in the fight,so that he hit   you with that last little golden bb that it took to cause final falier in somtin important. i think this is the answer ( and it dosent find any fault with gunnery model tho that was not my aim) and a 50 cal will ruin you whole day at 15k ( being half the aimbiant air density that you would have at sea level i.e. half the resistantce from drag and alot more range) the shot seems emanently possible and even totaly correct. any way i saw it at it was a bute heeh

[RAM]

Shooter was Chaunc. Hits on my plane were all concenctrated on right wing and side of the plane...Wing ripped from 1.3K was the left...I am doubtful that some rounds of 50 cal can rip a wing from that distance. I am doubtful a hispano 20mm can hit from that distance. I am not messing with damage model, 20mm is deadly at any distance. What I say is that the hit chance must be lowered at those long shots IMHO

BTW towd..nice fite  ...but sad my ded  

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Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

[Toad]

BigJim

Deal! Please sign the suitable waiver so that I have no liability.

Give me a few thousand rounds of practice (far less than people have had here) and then let's play.

Ever shot coyotes out of a pickup doing 60 across a Kansas prairie?    

Not that the ground vehicle analogy is all that applicable. Airplanes, in general, are far more smooth a gun platform than a vehicle in open country.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-16-2000).]