Author Topic: HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!  (Read 887 times)

Offline Buzzbait

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« on: June 13, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
S! Hitech,  Pyro and company

   You can of course choose to ignore these comments.  After all, I have never subscribed to AH, and I don’t nessesarily represent the type of clientele you are presently making your money off.  On the other hand, if you instituted my suggestions, you could bet I and lots of people like myself would be willing to fork over a few dollars.

   I’ve been waiting for the release of WWII Online to post this.  I was curious to see how that Sim would turn out.  As it is, my suspicions were confirmed, it has serious problems.  Perhaps they will work them out, perhaps not.

   But one thing which has been proven beyond the slightest doubt:  

PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY LOTS OF MONEY FOR A HISTORICALLY BASED ARENA.

LOTS OF PEOPLE.   

   What does this mean for AH?

   It mean lots of money making opportunities are available out there if you and your design staff decide to take advantage of them.

   Lets face it:  You guys are the best.  Your servers are stable, your flight modelling is accurate to the smallest detail, (well, 99% of the time, you still gotta put a paddle blade prop on that D11) and your graphics kick a**.

   So what are you waiting for?

   With additions, you could relatively easily have a historical Arena based on the June ‘44 Normandy Breakout.  A few more and you could have an Okinawa ‘45 campaign.  These are at least as interesting as Battle for France.

   Probably a couple years of focusing on getting a correct set of units together would do it.  Right now you are putting out lots of new units all the time, but the output is not focused.  Planes from one era, tanks from another, etc. etc.

   I’ve been watching the Bulletin boards for quite a while, and recently they are showing a DEFINITE lack of energy, excitement and new postings.  Sorry to say it, but I think that Furball oriented Online games are running out of steam.  I think you need to evolve or maybe you are going to go the way of the dinosaurs.  Which would be a shame considering all the talent and skill which is obviously present in the AH design team.

   So what am I suggesting?  Well, since I am partial to the European Theater, I’ll give you my outline for a Normandy June ’44 Arena.  This would be AFTER the invasion.  (Trying to duplicate an invasion is much too complicated)


Outline for Normandy June ’44 Historical Arena

New Units required:

Aircraft

General Aircraft:  (available to both sides)

Unarmed Artillery Spotting Plane

German:

Me109G6AM (remodel of existing aircraft)
Me 110G
JU88C (remodel)

British:

Spit IXLF (remodel)
Mosquito Mk VI

American:

P-38J (remodel)

Ground Units:

General ground units, (available to either side):

2 ½ ton truck
Unarmoured Prime mover Halftrack

German:

Pz Mk Vd Panther  (75mm high velocity)
SPW 251/1 Halftrack
Wirlbirwind Quad 20mm Flak Vehicle
75mm AT gun  (towed)
88mm Flak gun  (towed)
4 gun 105mm Artillery Battery
2 tube 81mm Mortar Section

British/Canadian/Polish:

Sherman Firefly  (17pdr/76mm high velocity)
Bren Gun Carrier
6lber (57mm with discarding Sabot Ammo) AT gun  (towed)
4 gun 25lber Artillery Battery
2 tube 76mm Mortar Section

American/French:

M4A2 Sherman (75mm with Gyroscope)
M7 Priest 105mm Self propelled Artillery
4 gun 105mm Artillery Battery
2 tube 81mm Mortar Section


AT Guns would be towed by 2 ½ ton trucks, the Tracked Prime Movers, or in the case of the 6 lber, they could be towed by the Bren Gun Carrier.  The 88mm Flak requires a Tracked Prime Mover.

Obviously British and Americans used each other’s Equipment.  All the British/American Vehicles/Guns (new or existing AH ones) are usable by either nationality except the Sherman Firefly, Bren Gun Carrier, 25lber Battery and 105mm Battery.

Infantry Squad Units

German:

10 man Infantry Squad  (including Tripod mounted MG42 Team, Panzerfaust)
5 man Medium MG Squad  (MG42 on Fixed mounting)

British/Canadian/Polish:

10 man Infantry Squad (including Bren Gun Team, PIAT Team)
5 man Medium MG Squad  (Vickers .303)
3 man Naval Artillery Spotting Squad

US/French:

10 man Infantry Squad (including BAR team, Bazooka Team)
5  man Medium MG Squad  (.30 Browning)
5 man Heavy MG Squad (.50 Browning)
3 man Naval Artillery Spotting Squad


Rather than using a system like WWIIOL, where every single soldier has to be human controlled, I would suggest using a Squad based system whereby the player takes the part of a Squad Leader.  He would see out of the eyes of the Squad Leader.  All the members of the Squad would move exactly as he does, (including running, crawling, standing or adopting a prone position)  if he fires, they will fire at the same target.  There would be no AI for Squad members.  If the player’s Leader (he would start as Squad Sergeant) is killed, he moves to the position of the second in command of the Squad.  (Corporal) If both Leaders are killed, then the Squad is dissolved.  (In effect, it routs or surrenders) The Squad would suffer causualties by individual men, if a heavy weapon holder is killed, another Squad member will automatically take control of that weapon if there is one remaining alive.

Squads could be transported in Halftracks or 2 ½ ton trucks.  5 man or 3 man Squads could be transported in Bren Gun Carriers.  A Squad moving into a Vehicle, would be a passenger, although if the vehicle has weapons, then the Squad controlling player could fire the vehicle weapons if the player controlling the vehicle is not using them.  

Artillery Batteries and Mortars could be controlled by any player controlling an Infantry Squad with a Leader remaining, or by any Spotter plane.  There would be a set number of Artillery Batteries and Mortar units per side.  Artillery Batteries could be moved once per day, and would be out of action for 2 hours during the move.  Mortars could be moved 4 times per day and would be out of action for 30 minutes.

Naval Artillery Spotting Teams could take control of Naval Task Forces and control their Fire.

Additional ground units could be introduced later.  These might include the following:

German:

Stu IIIG (75mm)
Stu G 105  (105mm)
Tiger MkVIe (88mm)
Pz A II 105mm Self propelled Artillery Wespe
PSW234/1 Armoured Car  (20mm)
4 tube 120mm Mortar Platoon
10 man Engineer Squad (Flame Thrower and Demolition Charges)
10 man SS Infantry Squad
5 man SS MMG Squad

British:

Churchill VIII  (95mm)
Cromwell  (75mm)
25lber Self Propelled Artillery Sexton  (88mm)
Ram Kangaroo APC
Staghound 1a Armoured Car  (37mm)
17pdr AT Gun (76mm)
4 gun 5.5 inch Artillery Battery
10 man Engineer Squad  (Flame Thrower and Demolition Charges)

American:

M4A1 Sherman (76mm)
M4A3E2 Sherman Jumbo  (75mm with additional armour)
M4 105 Sherman  (105mm)
M8 Armoured Car (37mm)
4 Gun M1A1 155mm Artillery Battery
10 man Engineer Squad  (Flame Thrower and Demolition Charges)

Naval Units:

German:

E-Boat  (remodel of PT Boat)
Destroyer  (Single ship)
U-Boat

British/American:

British MTB Boat (remodel of PT Boat)
Destroyer  (single ship)
Battle Ship Task Force (remodel of CV Task Force)

AI Units:

Flak Guns
Airfield Defence Weapons
V1’s and Flak defence  (German)
Trains with Flak Cars  (German)
Liberty Ship Convoy (Allies)
German Coastal Steamer Convoy  (Including Flak Ships)


   V1’s would be based in the Pas de Calais and would fire at targets in London, or in the Normandy Beach head.   Trains would run from the Ruhr through the Paris area, and up towards Normandy.   Liberty Ship Convoys would run between Southhampton and Normandy.  German Coastal Convoys would run in the Scheldt Estuary region and perhaps south towards the Pas de Calais.


Other Targets

Factories  (In the Ruhr, Paris, Antwerp, Brussels, Lille, London, Southhampton)
Ports  (Antwerp, London, Southhampton, Invasion Beaches)
Cities  (London, Paris, Ruhr Cities, Brussels, Antwerp, Lille)

Map:

   The map would be a rectangular shape, wider North/South,  running from the Cherbourg peninsula on the South to the Scheldt Estuary and Port of Antwerp in the North, and from London in the West to the Ruhr and Paris in the East.

   It would be designed to allow all the current AH aircraft, ground and sea units,  from the time period, as well as the new units to operate.

   The ground Front would be the lines as they existed in starting June 7th 1944.  So the fighting Front would be a relatively narrow area.  (approximately 40 real miles by 40 real miles at it’s biggest expansion) This would be the only area where extensive terrain modelling would be required.  The Campaign would end after the Allied player advanced the Front lines as far forward as St Lo and Falaise, stretching the German lines to breaking point, or the Germans eliminate the Bridgehead.  Probably restricting combat to ‘Choke Points’, as in WWIIOL would be a good idea.

   Terrain required would be two main types:  Bocage, in the Southern American Front, and more open terrain in the Caen area with small hilltops.  Types of terrain required would be:

Open fields
Wheat fields  (blocking line of sight to infantry but not fire)
Hedgerows
Stone walls
Stone Farm Buildings at crossroads
Wooded areas
Villages comprised of multiple stone buildings
Roads

No City enviroments would be required.   The only major city, Caen was bypassed on both sides by the Allies.

   There should be limited numbers of certain unit types that can be on the server at any one time, or limited numbers allowed per day.  Ie.  Panthers, Flak 88’s, Sherman Fireflys, Ostwinds.   First come first served, or if a player has a good kill/death ratio, then he would get priority.

The Map would have two sections where the Aircraft “Furballers” could have a good time.  This would be the Pas de Calais, and the Normandy Bridgehead.  Flight distances would be minimal.  Otherwise the Map should be much more to scale than the existing ones already done for AH, as for example North Africa, which is a very much out of scale.   Perhaps a 2.5 to 1 scale would work.

For those who love a Strat Bombing Campaign, there would be the Ruhr and the multiple Factories based there.   To cut down on the flying time, players flying Bombers or Fighters escorting Bombers could start with their aircraft at 25,000 feet, already over the North Sea.  This is the point at which the German Radar installations would get firm indications on the status of raids, and the point at which German Fighters would start to be launched.  There would be a ceiling of 25,000 feet for B17’s.
I would like to see a system for heavy bombers whereby one player controls 3 Bombers.  That is, he flys in the lead Bomber, and the other two Bombers in his flight mimic his movements exactly.    If he is shot down, then he may jump to control one of the other bombers.  If some of his bombers take damage, then he can slow the entire formation to allow them to maintain position.  At a certain point, damaged bombers would break from the formation and coast down for a crash landing.  All bombers would have AI gunners.  This system would allow for something closer to the big formations which historically were present.  6 Human Bomber players could form an entire Group of 18 Bombers.  It would also reduce the need for the overdone bomber gunnery which is nessesary now for a Bomber to survive in the present system.  It would also reduce the need for the pinpoint accuracy seen now.   With 3 bombers, the “drop on the leader” bombing system would more accurately reflect the historical type of bombing.

There would be NO possibility of Spitfires and Typhoons escorting B-17’s to the Ruhr.

There would also be the Medium Bomber campaign to eliminate the ‘Noball’ (V1) sites in the Pas de Calais.  This was undetaken historically by B-26 units, assisted by P-47 and Typhoon Fighter-Bombers.   This would be a short range mission.

There also could be the historical Anti-Shipping Campaigns carried on by both sides.  JU 88’s and Mosquitos could attack the various shipping targets, both at night and in the day.

1 hour of the day  could be set aside for Night missions.

German Subs, E-Boats, Destroyers could attempt night attacks on the Liberty Ship Convoys and could be counter-attacked by U.S. and British Destroyers and MTB’s.  Anyone for combat by the light of starshell?

Strat bombing missions to the Ruhr by the Lancasters, could be countered by JU88C’s and  Me110’s.  Mosquitos could fly night intruder roles as well as bombing.  The Allied bombers and night intruders could start at altitude over the North Sea.

B-17’s and Lancasters could do Carpet bombing missions in Normandy.

Destruction of Factories, Trains, and Convoys would affect the numbers and types of units available at the Front line.  German V1’s could be aimed at Southhampton and the invasion Bridgehead and port facilities.  (the Allies were concerned the Germans would do this but Hitler was fixated on London)

The Germans would have the advantage in vehicles on the ground, the Allies would have the best short range air superiority Fighter in the Spit IX, and better ground attack in the Typhoon and P-47.  In the Strat bombing campaign the aircraft would be more evenly matched up with P-51’s, P-38’s and P-47’s versus 109G6 AM’s, G-10’s and FW 190A5’s and A8’s.

Obviously this would require a huge amount of work, but it could also be introduced in stages.  Creating a full line up of Ground units would be a logical first element on the agenda.

A similar Order of Battle could be planned for an Okinawa Campaign if that was a choice for a Historical Arena.  (although the Japanese Tanks are no match for US models)

And if players know there is a plan, then they will be patient.

You wouldn’t even have to eliminate your MA.  Keep it and phase this Historical Arena in on a part-time basis, perhaps 2 days a week.

The 1000’s of people attempting to get in on the WWIIOL experience is a clear indication that there is a huge appetite for this type of thing.  Why not do your own version right, make bundles of money and make us historical types happy?


                                                                          Cheers Buzzbait

  ;)

Offline Westy MOL

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2001, 07:33:00 PM »
A very well thought out and spoken post Buzzbait. I think you're right and I think that it is something HTC could do easily. They've got 80%of it now. Land, air and naval (including amphibs). Add a more complex terrain, dynamic spawnpoints and some other features and instant "all out war" ala 194x!

-Westy

Offline ra

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2001, 07:46:00 PM »
Nice work there Buzzbait.  HTC already has most of the components, but they are being wasted on a furball game.

Maybe if HTC sees things your way they will quietly achieve the kind of sim that WWIIOnline has very loudly claimed to be.

ra

Offline Buzzbait

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2001, 08:09:00 PM »
I forgot, the US/French should have the M10 GMC Tank Destroyer (76mm) too.

Offline Fariz

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2001, 08:15:00 PM »
Historical arena -- I do not interested in it while it is only a restrictions of plane types for sides. What I really want some roleplaying and strategical component of it. Right now even best AH event does not give such feeling. I afraid that HTC does not have plans to add something like that even in distant future.

 :(

Fariz

Offline hazed-

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2001, 08:31:00 PM »
HTC hire buzzbait  ;)

Offline Bluefish

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2001, 09:24:00 PM »
Outstanding post, Buzzbait!  It seems like a sort of Combat Mission meets AH, with a first person view/control in the vehicles.

Offline Buzzbait

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2001, 11:15:00 PM »
S!

By the way, I think the ground level Front lines would need a series of AI strongpoints so that the sides would not be entirely dependent on Human controlled entities.

The strongpoints would probably be best to have perhaps 2 AT Guns, and a number of Machine gun positions.

Strongpoints would be placed along the previous days front line, and would not be replaced during the course of a day.  They would reappear after the night phase.

Offline Animal

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2001, 12:40:00 AM »

Offline Buzzbait

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2001, 02:22:00 AM »
Damn, I should have kept a screenshot of you getting shot down after you got target fixated on me and chased me for 4 minutes in through that furball.   :)

But seriously, you're good Animal.  Although I still don't understand how you zoom up, loop and then accelerate after me and catch up when I'm pulling zero G's and diving in a P-47.

Offline Buzzbait

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2001, 02:23:00 AM »
And by the way...  What do you think of my post????????

Offline Mark Luper

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2001, 07:24:00 AM »
Buzz,
Nice post. I like the ideas presented here. It would definately change gameplay. I can see it making the game a little more immersive. You have obviously done a lot of work thinking this out and writting it. Kudos to you bud. Salute!

MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!

Offline Animal

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2001, 09:02:00 AM »
Yes, I did read your post.
You post some good points, but I believe HTC thought of all this long ago.

Maybe when they finish building all their vehicles it will be done. Maybe in a year or so.

They are not gonna stay idle.

Offline B52Charlie

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2001, 09:28:00 AM »
<places bookmark 1/3 way thru post><will be back some rainy day to finish>

Offline samu1

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HiTech and Pyro: Lot's of money to be made!!!
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2001, 12:18:00 PM »
Excellent post, WTG. IMHO if AH is to survive in the coming years it will eventually have to evolve into a WW2OL type thing, otherwise AH will be swallowed up by the competition and die.

Lets hope HTC take notice of this

WTG Again    :cool:

Sam