Six direct hits with 8" gun to kill Panzer??!!

[Widewing]

This evening, I manned a shore battery to engage GVs at a port after the VH was bombed.

I fired on a Panzer about 2k distant. The Panzer was stopped, shooting at the base. First shot was a tad long, readjusted and second shot was dead on.... Nothing, nada, no damage.

Fired again.. another hit. Blew off track.

Fired again.. Another direct hit... Nothing, Panzer still shooting at base.

Fired yet again! Direct hit... Panzer's engine disabled. It's still shooting at base.

Fired again. Near miss.

Fired again. Another direct hit... Knocked out turret.

Fired again. Another near miss.

Fired again. Direct hit and Panzer blows up.

Talk about your modeling issues...

A typical 8 inch gun fired a shell weighing 260 pounds. Muzzle velocity is in the range of 760 meters per second. At the range I was shooting, muzzle velocity would still be well over 700 meters per second. That weight of shell moving at that speed would have pulverized a 27 ton Panzer like a 12 gauge rifled slug hitting a watermellon. We're talking about tremendous kinetic energy being applied. Penetration should have been through and through, in one side and out the other, with relative ease. Hell, even a 260 pound rock hitting the turret at 2,300 fps would have ripped off the turret and turret basket.

And what is it with the wandering zero? Even at short range, shells went right, then left, and sometimes over. We can discount wind, because there isn't any. Remember, the target was stationary.

To say that the armor model is in need of revamping is a huge understatement.

I saw 4 rounds fired from a Panzer bounce off the flat frontal armor of another Panzer at less than 400 hundred yards. The first one SHOULD have penetrated easily. First, the frontal armor of a MkIV is virtually flat, or 90 degrees to the incoming round. Believe me when I tell you that an AP round from the 75mm KwK L/43 gun will blow right through the 50mm armor of a MkIV Panzer at 1,000 yards. At less than half of that distance, destruction of the target Panzer is certain. At least in the real world.

These are the things that drive players nuts.

My regards,

Widewing

[flakbait]

Actually your velocity is a bit low. 700 m/s (2296 ft/sec) is more typical of 3-5,000 yards. At 2,000 yards the velocity would be more along the lines of 760m/s or higher. Considering the typical 260lbs APC shell was fired with a muzzle velocity of 808m/s (2650.5 ft/sec). Energy figures would be horrific to say the least. A 260lbs projectile hitting a 24.6 ton tank at 2,492.8 ft/sec impacts with 25,134,939.68 ft/lbs of energy. Or enough force to move that tank 510 feet. Not counting, of course, the 20-odd pounds of high explosives inside the shell itself.

It's safe to say that a single hit anywhere on a tank, provided the impact angle was at least 60º or steeper, would kill that tank and turn it into a stack of hubcaps. Especially given the fact that the maximum armor thickness of the PzIV, anywhere, is 3.2 inches. If the 25.1 million foot-pounds of energy doesn't blow the tank apart, 20 pounds of HE would put a nice hole in it when the contact fuze is set off.

Methinks the shipgun-hitting-tank model needs a look-see.


8"/55 gun specs from http://www.warships1.com

Calculations for energy done using basic KE functions (KE = 1/2 (M * (V * V))

Conversion from Joules to foot-pounds done using Versaverter and http://www.onlineconversion.com

PzIV data from German Tanks of WW II

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School

[4510]

Man... I grabbed my pocket protector, my calculator, sat down, started reading this post and said....

DUDE...... You guys are firing WAAAAYYYY over my head.

OTOH, something instinctively told me that an 8" shell would cause mechanical issues with a Panzer.....

Was interesting reading tho.

[MOIL]

Originally posted by Widewing
This evening, I manned a shore battery to engage GVs at a port after the VH was bombed.

I fired on a Panzer about 2k distant. The Panzer was stopped, shooting at the base. First shot was a tad long, readjusted and second shot was dead on.... Nothing, nada, no damage.

Fired again.. another hit. Blew off track.

Fired again.. Another direct hit... Nothing, Panzer still shooting at base.

Fired yet again! Direct hit... Panzer's engine disabled. It's still shooting at base.

Fired again. Near miss.

Fired again. Another direct hit... Knocked out turret.

Fired again. Another near miss.

Fired again. Direct hit and Panzer blows up.

Talk about your modeling issues...

A typical 8 inch gun fired a shell weighing 260 pounds. Muzzle velocity is in the range of 760 meters per second. At the range I was shooting, muzzle velocity would still be well over 700 meters per second. That weight of shell moving at that speed would have pulverized a 27 ton Panzer like a 12 gauge rifled slug hitting a watermellon. We're talking about tremendous kinetic energy being applied. Penetration should have been through and through, in one side and out the other, with relative ease. Hell, even a 260 pound rock hitting the turret at 2,300 fps would have ripped off the turret and turret basket.

And what is it with the wandering zero? Even at short range, shells went right, then left, and sometimes over. We can discount wind, because there isn't any. Remember, the target was stationary.

To say that the armor model is in need of revamping is a huge understatement.

I saw 4 rounds fired from a Panzer bounce off the flat frontal armor of another Panzer at less than 400 hundred yards. The first one SHOULD have penetrated easily. First, the frontal armor of a MkIV is virtually flat, or 90 degrees to the incoming round. Believe me when I tell you that an AP round from the 75mm KwK L/43 gun will blow right through the 50mm armor of a MkIV Panzer at 1,000 yards. At less than half of that distance, destruction of the target Panzer is certain. At least in the real world.

These are the things that drive players nuts.

My regards,

Widewing

One of the many reasons LTAR got so mad about the GV aspect of the game, or the lack of.
Was fun though!

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Widewing


To say that the armor model is in need of revamping is a huge understatement.

I saw 4 rounds fired from a Panzer bounce off the flat frontal armor of another Panzer at less than 400 hundred yards. The first one SHOULD have penetrated easily. First, the frontal armor of a MkIV is virtually flat, or 90 degrees to the incoming round. Believe me when I tell you that an AP round from the 75mm KwK L/43 gun will blow right through the 50mm armor of a MkIV Panzer at 1,000 yards. At less than half of that distance, destruction of the target Panzer is certain. At least in the real world.

These are the things that drive players nuts.

My regards,

Widewing

Yes the bounce model is suscpicous to me.

I had several PZIV shots bounce off other PZIV fronts as close as 20 yards and there was minimal angle diffirence. It's incrediblr frustrating.

[4510]

Well I know its old news (AH1) but I stopped playing around with GVs.. after my M8 hit a just spawned M8 from 300 yrds.. square in the engine compartment with AP.  Four times before he even got rolling.  He started a sweeping turn to the right... I hit him in the side twice.... he started to smoke... he in me in the frontal arc twice and killed me.

[simshell]

im NOT JOKING

i had over 20+ rounds bonce off a panzer at 800+ in a field gun ever time it bounce off i would then try to get a other angle on it and still it would bounce into the air

the GVs are making me go nuttz with this FORCE FIELD

[MOIL]

Force field!!  Nice

[Oleg]

Field manned gun armed with 37mm HE, it much more effective against airplanes than armored tanks.

Nevertheless, something wrong with bounce model, especially in near 90 degrees impact angle. Sometimes it really annoying.

[MOIL]

HEY!!!

There's another Oleg in Russia, but his last name is Maddox.

What are you doing over here, shouldn't you be working on IL2, J/K:D

[Oleg]

I think about signature "Im NOT Maddox"

[MOIL]

Oleg

[Zanth]

Originally posted by MOIL
One of the many reasons LTAR got so mad about the GV aspect of the game, or the lack of.
Was fun though!

Come to think of it I not seen a LTAR tank in a while, they still around?

[Polaris]

I remember, some time ago, there were about 7 planes in the area all trying to kill this one Tiger.  I think over 20,000lbs of ordinance was dumped on this guy and who knows how many rounds of assorted ammunition.  He never popped.

As a matter of fact, you couldn't even see the guy anymore because of the bomb craters.  Yet there he sat...firing away on the town.  I think it might have been AH1.    There was some talk that it was a bug with the Tiger?