Plane type vs "performance"...?

[humble]

I'm still amazed how strong the allegience to a particular plane (or choice of planes) is to some...the following qoute was pulled of another thread...

"I expect to fly what I want when I want, just like it has been for years"

I reviewed my own "stats" from a couple different angles in replying on other threads. I looked at K/D in some of the "mid range" planes and then how I did in those planes vs the pony...

"I went back and checked out my last tour(50). I was 19-6 in F-6 18-6 in FM-2 9-2 in la-5 and 19-11 in spit V"

"I went back and did the "player (azhacker) vs plane type" search for my last few tours...was

6-1 205 vs pony
4-1 hog vs pony (3-1 in F4U-1)
7-0 F6F vs pony
6-1 La-5 vs pony

Over all was 27-12 one tour and 31-15 another from all causes"

I'd say I'm reasonably decent stick but certainly not anything special. I can't assume that my #'s are significantly out of step with the "rank & file" of any of the guys flying in the major squads.

What is all the fuss over plane type?? It just doesn't make any real difference in performance in a large heavily populated MA like we have.

[Mak333]

There are different players in the main arena and all over this HTC community.  

You are only comparing your results to the P-51D.  People don't fly the 51D to rack up kills.  They fly it for the characteristics and the versatility.  It carries up to 2600 lbs.  It is what rooks would call, a true mission bird.  People don't fly the thing because they want to get into dog fights and kick someone else's bellybutton in an La7.  They fly it because they can dive at speeds up to 600mph, take out a fighter hanger in a first pass, gain back the same alt they had, and continue to CAP a field.  While CAPing the field, it can fly escorts, or even get into turn fights with spits, n1ks, and la7's and still come on top.

It's not that people are fighting over the 51D because they cant go around running away from things anymore.  It's because they can't use it in misisons and other squad operations to take out a base and get a decent CAP on the field.

Why send out 3 different types of birds to do one job, when you could do the same job with 1 bird.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Mak333
Why send out 3 different types of birds to do one job, when you could do the same job with 1 bird.

And that is the single biggest problem I have with the late war arenas.  It kills diversity.

[humble]

P-38/F6F/F4U-D/P47-30 all can accomplish the same "mission profile". The tiffie doesn't have the same type of payload but can certainly be used in the same role.

I've never alluded to the pony as a "runstang" and I'm not looking at it from an air to air fighter perspective exclusively. I'm simply perplexed at the reaction I've seen (especially from pony drivers). I'd of expected the nikki/spit drivers to complain more. From a tactical mission standpoint there is not a single thing a pony can do that a 38 (or a Jug) can't do better.

[dedalos]

I am not saing that the 51 is used to run.  However, in an environment such as the MA, with red guys at 1k, 5k, 10k . . .20k some turners some speed deamons, most planes without at list one wing man, are death traps.  There is no way you will survive the MA in a F4U for example unless there is team work involved.  So, having a plane like 51D that can run or turnfight, can help you get out of troble and chose your batles a little better when you are by yourself.  After all, no one wants to be just a target.

Yes, you could beat a spit or nik in a p40 for example, but after you kill them, you pretty much  have 30 seconds left before his friends blow you out of the sky.

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Mak333
... People don't fly the 51D to rack up kills.  They fly it for the characteristics and the versatility.   People don't fly the thing because they want to get into dog fights and kick someone else's bellybutton in an La7. ...

It's not that people are fighting over the 51D because they cant go around running away from things anymore.  It's because they can't use it in misisons and other squad operations to take out a base and get a decent CAP on the field.

The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.

The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.

[humble]

Originally posted by dedalos
I am not saing that the 51 is used to run.  However, in an environment such as the MA, with red guys at 1k, 5k, 10k . . .20k some turners some speed deamons, most planes without at list one wing man, are death traps.  There is no way you will survive the MA in a F4U for example unless there is team work involved.  So, having a plane like 51D that can run or turnfight, can help you get out of troble and chose your batles a little better when you are by yourself.  After all, no one wants to be just a target.

Yes, you could beat a spit or nik in a p40 for example, but after you kill them, you pretty much  have 30 seconds left before his friends blow you out of the sky.

I disagree completely, I was a "lone wolf" flying for the niggits. I was always a "target". From a pure survivabilty perspective the P51 isn't really any better than a 109 G-2 in the MA if you actually commit to an engagement. The pony provides speed visability range and payload along with a quality flight envelope. Yes it WILL get you in and out of dodge faster...but once you commit to playing in dodge the pony will only take you as far as YOU let it.

[humble]

Originally posted by Midnight
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.

The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.

Why can't you guys to that in a 38, F6F,F4U-D or other bird? Quess thats my question...in a purely air to air fight all of em will match the pony quite nicely...

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Midnight
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.

The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.

That is why people fly the P-51D.  Well, add in "and fly out of there if I lose the advantage".  A 109G-2 can't run nearly as fast, plus it only has about half the firepower.

[dedalos]

Humble.

I think we are in agreement.  The other planes can definetly be used successfully.  What I was saying about the 51 is that it will allow you the choise of commiting or not in an engagement.  I think thats what people like (I flew it for a tour and thats the impresion I got, anyway).

For example, people complain about fast 51s la7s etc.  If it was one on one they would not be a problem.  La7 on my six at 2k out I can deal with in many dif ways.  Not a prob.  The real problem is the slower spit/nik/anything that turns, that follows it at 4k out.  The prob now is, you cannot out run the la7 and cannot out turn the spit.  In either case it became a two on one where you cannot out run or out turn.

Had you been in a 51 however, you could nose down a few degrees and run until the spit droped out of range and hopefully give up the chace.  Now you have an one on one with an la7 taht you can manage.  If you were in an F-anything and you don't have friends around, you pretty mach dead (assuming the other pilots are half dicent).  I think it is that choice that people like. (I don't undertand however why they are so upset that they have to try a dif plane once in a while.  It could actualy be fun)

[humble]

Originally posted by Urchin
That is why people fly the P-51D.  Well, add in "and fly out of there if I lose the advantage".  A 109G-2 can't run nearly as fast, plus it only has about half the firepower.

No one is coming out and saying, I need the pony because I can ______ in it and not with another ride. I hated the 109 for years till I had to fly it in the CT a bunch. It ended up that in the "late war" setups I'd grab a G-2 vs a G10 or D-9 everytime. I've always felt that if I lost in a G-2 I lost to a better stick...not a better plane. I can think of plenty of times I've had an la-7/pony/D-9 etc hunt my G-2 down and later on left em with the comment "some things are better off left uncaught:)"...now of course others have run me down and beat the snot out of me...but they whupped me...not the plane. Hell if theyed let wldthing strap on a .45 he'd find a way to hose me in a goonie.

[humble]

Originally posted by dedalos
Humble.

I think we are in agreement.  The other planes can definetly be used successfully.  What I was saying about the 51 is that it will allow you the choise of commiting or not in an engagement....

I guess you hit my real question right on the head...should the team with the NUMBERS be allowed to pick the plane(s) that allow them to control the engagement.

I used to fly the -30 jug with 1/2 ammo 25% fuel center DT 2x1000 and rockets. Could take out VH or FH and 2-4 fuel/ammo np. I'd go in at 10-12k...if I got "bounced" I just pickled everything. you can stand a light jug on its ear and with 5-6 K of air under you you can fight anything...had a couple of 7-8 kill hops landed like that (actually have a clip of one somewhere).

So many great options in the set...

...I appreciate your comments, think you've put a very nuetral spin on things...I do AGREE that the pony is the BEST all purpose plane in the game...just don't see why you cant do the job with a different bird.

[dtango]

humble:

The question you are asking is akin to trying to understand why someone prefers Heinekin over other beers based on the number of calories it has.  Some may make their beer choices based on that.  Others may not.

So are all beers the same?  Why do some people like Fat Tyre, while others like Sam Adams?  Maybe I prefer Shiner over others.  Then you have others that like a variety of beers.  The reasons for the preferences are myriad and don't all relate to a single set of logic.  Maybe I like the taste.  Maybe I like the label.  Maybe it reminds me of good times.   Maybe I like the commercials.   Maybe some or all the above.  Who knows but the preferences are real.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Shane]

Originally posted by Midnight
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.

The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.

so where is this now anachronistic "loyalty" to rooks coming from?

you've evolved, apparently. time to take it a step further, mmmm?

[humble]

dtango...

I understand the "I like the pony and prefer to fly it" arguement completely.

If the pony is unavailable, there are other choices that allow you to accomplish the same thing. Since Midnight made it clear that you guys don't fly it in the "multipurpose" role you could just as easily use P51-B/P-38/P47-30 in same role and probably get equal results.