Was the RLM working for the allies?

[GRUNHERZ]

This thing could have mounted an additonal 2 MG151 in the wings like standard 190s.

So its total armament could be:

2 x 13mm MG
4 x 20mm Cannon
1 x 30mm Mk103 Cannon

Which is as good as any Zerstores at the the time and nearly 100mph faster and much better climbing.

[BUG_EAF322]

their  biggest screw up was having their jets to late. while they could have been there much earlier.

[GScholz]

They screwed up so much it's difficult to choose which was the biggest.

[MiloMorai]

The DB603 was a private venture by DB. Those in charge did not like DB developing this engine as it took resources away from further development of the 605. It was 'blackballed' by the RLM.

The DB603 was first installed in Fw190V13, W.Nr 0036 which crashed 30-7-42.

@ Cumpp

The Fw190V15 (W.Nr 0037), V16 (W.Nr 0037) and V18 (W.Nr 0040) were the prototypes for the Fw190C. The V18 became the V18/U1 Kanguruh when the Hirth tc was added. It was later modified, /U2, to become the prototype for the Ta152H-1.

[Angus]

From Scholzie:
"They screwed up so much it's difficult to choose which was the biggest."

LOL, took the word out of my mouth.
Well, EVERYBODY screwed up, when you come to think of it.
Anyway, that DB603 stuff is really interesting, and I just wonder like the rest of you, why not?
Teething problems? Or problems when they tried increasing the power further, i.e. turbine heating?
Did they try intercooler?

[Pongo]

You could do way worse then fielding a fighter force of planes that were not produced for political or logistical(political) reasons.

MB5
190C
P38K
I185

There must be a Japanese one

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The DB603 was a private venture by DB. Those in charge did not like DB developing this engine as it took resources away from further development of the 605. It was 'blackballed' by the RLM.

The DB603 was first installed in Fw190V13, W.Nr 0036 which crashed 30-7-42.

@ Cumpp

The Fw190V15 (W.Nr 0037), V16 (W.Nr 0037) and V18 (W.Nr 0040) were the prototypes for the Fw190C. The V18 became the V18/U1 Kanguruh when the Hirth tc was added. It was later modified, /U2, to become the prototype for the Ta152H-1.

Yep V13, V15, V16 were the prototypes of this normal FW190C I'm talking about.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Angus
From Scholzie:
"They screwed up so much it's difficult to choose which was the biggest."

LOL, took the word out of my mouth.
Well, EVERYBODY screwed up, when you come to think of it.
Anyway, that DB603 stuff is really interesting, and I just wonder like the rest of you, why not?
Teething problems? Or problems when they tried increasing the power further, i.e. turbine heating?
Did they try intercooler?

This is why FW did not get to put DB603 into 190s until late 1944.



The Me410 went into production in January 1943 and needed 2 DB603. FW was ready to produce the 190C at the same time but the RLM wanted the 410 more..

This 1942 190C design had no turbocahrger, no intercooler, none of the carzy stuff FW tried later. It was a straight up "normaljager" with a standard supercharged DB603A. And it made 453mph on C3 fuel at 22K in 1942..  

[Karnak]

The Tempest with a Bristol Centarus wasn't even allowed to fly because one of the higher ups (I don't have my books here) hated Bristol radial engines and ordered it removed from the airframe before they could even test it.  The Tempest powered by the Bristol Centarus became the Fury and Sea Fury, and the British could have had it in 1944.


Pongo,

The A7M suffered from idiotic decisions.  First, Mitsubishi kept taking Horikoshi off the project to update his A6M rather than hand the A6M upgrade path off to junior engineer.  Second the Imperial Japanese Navy ordered Mitsubishi to use the 1,900hp Nakajima Ha-45 engine (same as in the N1K and Ki-84) instead of the 2,200hp Mitsubishi Ha-43-11 engine despite Horikoshi's statement that the Ha-45 was not powerful enough.  The A7M1 powered by the Ha-45 engine flew in (IIRC) 1943 and tested by the IJN proved to be underpowered.  The IJN then ordered it to be redesigned to use the Ha-43-11 that Horikoshi had originally planned on using.  The A7M2 with the Ha-43-11 flew in 1944, performed beyond the IJN's requirements and was ordered into production.  Tooling up was delayed by an earthquake and then stopped after only one production airframe by USAAF bombing efforts.

Without the interference by Mitsubishi and, mostly, the IJN I think that the Japanese could have fielded the A7M in mid to late 1944, maybe early '44.  It wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it would have made the cost a bit higher for the US.



Aside from that specific example, there was the whole antagonistic competition between the Army and Navy that led to near complete duplication of resources and capabilities between the two and occasional sabotage of the other service branch's efforts.

[VO101_Isegrim]

Hmm, the DB 603A itself wasn`t any better than the Jumo213A that was fitted to the Doras. Not anymore powerful, but perhaps the nose could be better with it. Had quite a big development potential, though, see DB 603L and N...

One thing we should not forget that the whole FW 190 project was about stading on two legs, ie. not just the Daimler Benz factories for fighters. Also I`d say they didn`t really feel the need for an uber-fighter in 42/43, with the 109G and FW 190A around. It`s understandable why a fast bomber like the 410 was more preferred, if you look at the picture from the air war point of view. Fighters are just one branch.

BTW, I have seen some drawing on the LEMB on a Bf 309B, don`t know if the drawing is authentic, but that`s one heck of beutiful DB 603 project, too :




Über lines !

[Karnak]

That's a nice looking airplane Isegrim.

[GRUNHERZ]

It's a sci-fi model made by somr japanese modeler.

http://www.warbirds.jp/kakuki/kyosaku/17ki/01.htm

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep V13, V15, V16 were the prototypes of this normal FW190C I'm talking about.

Crumpp can see a pic of the V13, SK+JS on pg 63 in the  G. Swanborough/W. Green 190 book (ISBN 0-668-04001-7) or in K. Tank's bio book on pg 153.

Angus, initially there was a cooling problem. The Technische Amt was not 'thrilled' with the DB603. Then there was the manufacturing capacity of DB to consider with the DB605 required by so many a/c. This is part of the reason the Jumo 213 was later used in the Dora. Then there was concern about high altitude Allied bombers (ie B-29) which the RLM did not think the current a/c then in development, would not be good enough > result change to the Ta152 a/c.

[Angus]

Izzy: Got more on that plane? It's a beauty!

Milo, Turbo-problem was what crossed my mind from some text before,  - i.e. heating problems.

How well were those problems solved with the DB605 for instance, and at what margin? The 603 is a bigger thing, so it may have called for extra cooling, hence my speculation of an intercooler or turbine cooler.

As a comparison, weren't the first griffons just single stage?
Same problems?

[MiloMorai]

With the TK11, the /U1 was very tail heavy, unstable on its axis and heavy on the controls (pilot Sanders), the tc would not reach its correct rpm (not rising over 20k rpm), the oil cooler was in-efficient, blades fractured in the turbo. After 30 hrs of flight, though some of the problems could have been fixed,  the plug was pulled on the /U1. No mention in Tank's bio of exhaust feed pipes problems.