Author Topic: Rangoon '42  (Read 6090 times)

Offline DoKGonZo

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Rangoon '42
« on: August 18, 2004, 09:59:25 PM »
Rangoon '42  is expected to run before year's end. Dux is building the terrain now. The actual terrain bed stretches from Mandalay to Singapore to Saigon, but we only will populate the area we need for now.

This will most likely be an 8-mission (Sat and Sun) event in the classic angst-riddled, ulcer-inducing style. Exact dates and times are still being worked out, as are the finishing touches on the event description (which is like 6 pages long as it is ... geezuz). It's constructed to hold around 320 or so players, and we're hoping to get a full roster owing to the unique nature of the event, and the uncertainty of when I'll get talked into this again.

My Scenario Site has the current description and rules, a preview of the area map, and a bunch of links to background info on the actual battle.

Note that this is a semi-what-if event ... it takes the course of the battle in a different direction based on where things started at the beginning of 1942. In keeping with the actual battle altitudes will be comparatively low - mostly below 15K - and radar will be all but non-existant.

Offline B17Skull12

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2004, 10:46:48 PM »
Looks fun!
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Offline Flossy

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 01:59:55 AM »
Great, a chance to take part in one of your scenarios I've heard so much about!  I missed the Air Warrior scenarios as I only started playing in July 1998.  I'm looking forward to finally participating in what looks like being a fun event.  :cool:
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Offline ramzey

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 02:26:15 AM »
website looks impressive, a lot work has bean done, wow

i wish to have correct planeset for this event, but HTC not care much about that

Offline Easyscor

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 03:42:22 AM »
That is a lot of work.

I thought something else was running in November but I’m probable confused.  A couple of comments.

This quote needs careful review:

The spacing for the fields should be such that a loaded Ju-88 can launch, climb to 10,000 ft, and then get to “Rangoon” and back – all in about two hours.

The terrain builder will make the map pretty much to your specification so think for a minute what you’ve said here.  If  Dux follows your instructions to the letter it will mean the bombers must launch and fly a direct route with no time or fuel to very their flight path and yet again, bombers will be relegated to fill the roll as useless bait in another scenario.  The fighters can be brought together anywhere so make sure you have the bomber part right and the rest will follow.  Put yourself in the bomber GLs shoes.  Would you want to lead 6-10 people along the same flight path every week knowing the horde was waiting or that your targets are something like 4K fighter hangers scattered at impossible angles?  I don’t think you’d want to show up after a frame or two.

Take one third the number of minutes for a frame including any rtb time after hostilities end and see how far the slowest bomber will go from launch at CRUISE or ECONOMICAL manifold settings, not full throttle.  That’s the maximum distance the target should be from the launch base.  If you offer a second ride for the bomber pilots, it needs to be even closer so the bomber guys have a chance to actually use that second ride.

I haven’t finished reading all your outline but you have another disturbing sentence in your setup:

Quote: There should be medium clouds moving around the target area and about 1-2 sectors out from that. The cloud base should be at 10,000 feet. Meaning that for the bombers to be able to get to target and know for sure they can see it to drop they need to descend to below 10,000 feet. Everywhere else should be clear skies.

Do you really intend to force the level bombers to fly through the ack? I don’t think the cloud layer is even necessary, at least not for the stated purpose but if you want it for atmosphere then keep it but raise it to 11 or 12K.  If I remember correctly from AH1, it takes a while for the clouds to build and sometimes they can be very annoying to everybody even if they don’t mess up frame rates.


On the matter of targets, a Bomber GL should not need to fling his pilots across the sky on separate paths in order to hit the assigned targets.  For examples of terrains with good target layouts, look at the rows of barracks and bunkers on the AH1 Slot map or the rows of barracks on the Niemen map.  For examples of what not to do, look at the FHs at the ports or the gun emplacements at the Heavy Vehicle Bases on the Kurland map.

I’m in favor of capping the altitude on scenario in order to make them faster paced and suggest that enemy bar dar be turned on at 20-25K for everybody.  Fly above it and you show to anyone with the clipboard up.

I don’t think setting different altitude caps for the combatants is going to set too well with the community and it will be a nightmare for the CM to enforce.

It should be interesting to see how this develops.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 10:52:41 AM »
The terrain is already worked out. It's about a 6-sector transit flight up the gut. Probably closer to 45 minutes including climb-out. Ju88 cruises at 275 at 10K so it should work. It'll be somewhat slower on the way in with bombs, but on the way out with a little dive it can run well. That leaves plenty of time to work less direct routes.


Clouds aren't cast in concrete. I also didn't want to set up a situation where the Allies had an easy bounce over the target. I may leave the clouds off in the first mission to see how things go, and then add them later at different places to keep balance.


There will be 24 primary structures in Rangoon and 24-36 bombers available to destroy these. You'll be dropping from relatively low (compared to MA) altitude, so you should have some decent accuracy and the 88 carries a nice payload. At that altitude you could probably destroy a large building just with the internal 50kg bombs. But I'm allowing the externals as well to ensure that each bomber can take out it's building.

On top of which, you'll have 2 or 3 (depending on force selection) strike groups. So you can allocate targets based on the directions these groups will be coming from. You don't have to. You can concentrate everything in one group. But you will be attacking a major metropolitan area, it shouldn't be as easy as de-acking a field in the MA.


In the past I've had very few problems with people violating pre-engagement altitudes. And you guys enforce it when you spot each other. If things look wrong then run 2 seconds of film, save it, send it - done.

This battle was fought under 15K, so having Zekes and P-40's clawing for air at 30K would not only be completely unrealistic, it'd be no damn fun given the climb rates and high-alt performance of these planes.

Besides which, the Ju88 climbs so slow you'll use 1/3 of your fuel getting to 20K.


I'm surprised no one griped about bombers flying as singles.

Offline Flossy

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 11:48:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
I'm surprised no one griped about bombers flying as singles.
Only because I didn't see it - not read all the details yet.... I would prefer formations to give us a fighting chance.... it's not like we can take a full complement of gunners, and in fact having a gunner would mean the pilot being stuck in the cockpit....
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2004, 12:12:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flossy
Only because I didn't see it - not read all the details yet.... I would prefer formations to give us a fighting chance.... it's not like we can take a full complement of gunners, and in fact having a gunner would mean the pilot being stuck in the cockpit....


Take up a Hurricane I offline and try shooting a drone. Observe how much .303 you need to dump into a P51 to get stuff to break off, let alone make it explode. Notice how long you need to sit there in firing range.

Now look at the performance tables, notice how the Ju88 is only like 50mph slower than most of the Allied fighters at 10K.

24 Ju88's in tight formation is plenty against these early war planes.

Offline airbumba

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2004, 02:13:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Take up a Hurricane I offline and try shooting a drone. Observe how much .303 you need to dump into a P51 to get stuff to break off, let alone make it explode. Notice how long you need to sit there in firing range.

Now look at the performance tables, notice how the Ju88 is only like 50mph slower than most of the Allied fighters at 10K.

24 Ju88's in tight formation is plenty against these early war planes.


Just look how hard it is to down a Ju88 in the present BOB with a Hurr I. It's not an easy task, and sitting on his six shooting, only leads to a test of the rescue rules.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2004, 02:38:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by airbumba
Just look how hard it is to down a Ju88 in the present BOB with a Hurr I. It's not an easy task, and sitting on his six shooting, only leads to a test of the rescue rules.


Also bear in mind that one of the big reasons contributing to heavy IJA bomber losses then was that the bombers often got ahead of their fighters and arrived over target without escort.

This problem won't be as bad in the event as the A6M2 is faster that the fighters which were actually involved. Even so, if the escort gets a sector behind the bombers for some reason, it will be very hard for them to get back on station without having the bombers wait for them. And that gives the Allies a chance to assemble a coordinated attack.

And that's the kind of in-air decision that CO's will need to deal with.

Offline Easyscor

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2004, 05:01:10 PM »
It sounds like you're on the right track.

Most of the Allies will have 50 cals and the IJN will have cannon, not 303s.  Any of these fighters can easily kill the bombers if flown by an experienced pilot and there won't be many (any?) gunner joins without formations as Flossy insinuated.

You might need to bribe Hitech to fix the top turret tail interrupter cutout on the Boston before this event starts. ;)

Use .target 40 and see what I mean.

Also, I'll be very surprised to see more then twelve pilots actually flying bombers by frame 2.  Bombers aren't popular in AH and these are two of the least popular bombers in the inventory.
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2004, 06:15:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Easyscor
...

Also, I'll be very surprised to see more then twelve pilots actually flying bombers by frame 2.  Bombers aren't popular in AH and these are two of the least popular bombers in the inventory.


The Blenheim guys - to me anyway - have the coolest job in the event. 4 nose-mounted .303's is certainly enough to take out an Ju-88's engine - to hell with the dorsal gunner.

Keeping the ranks filled is up to the team leaders. This is a long event and it will likely sway back and forth at least once. That means some people may need to swallow their "pride" and fly bombers once in a while. And some late recruiting may need to be done.

Offline Westy

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2004, 07:11:02 PM »
"I'm surprised no one griped about..."

 Patience please. It's still early  ;)

 (wets thumb and starts strolling thru rolodex looking for Gypsy Barons email....)  

:

 Out of curiosity....

 Will Dux model the 5k height of the mountain range running down the peninsula in the map he's creating? (thanks Dux!)

 And a big thank you DoK. I'm looking forward to this one very much. The write up is really intriguing. I'm still reading through it but what I've perused sure seems to be laying out one hell of a scenario.  I'll bet there'll be a few holes punched in walls and more than just a couple of people will need to be peeled down from the ceiling.  :)  
« Last Edit: August 24, 2004, 08:38:48 AM by Westy »

Offline jordi

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2004, 11:18:06 PM »
Just saw this thread.

We are fuly supporting this scenario just for the record.

More than willing to let someone else take the HEAT for a while !

:)
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Offline DoKGonZo

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Rangoon '42
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2004, 11:24:08 PM »
Yes ... mountains will be there and top out at around 5K. Major rivers will be in place too.

We're trying to lock in dates and times now ... we may have to scale back to 6 missions if we want this to run before year's end. But that may be OK given that few AH flyers have experienced this level of play before.

Also quite likely I'll scale down the sides to ensure we fill the event with a nice supply of stand-bys.

Hopefully we can start taking applications for command staff around the long weekend and open registration early September.

Below is the current event logo I'm working on. I plan to sign up for a cafepress.com store and let people who want a souvenir buy items at cost (i.e. I won't make money off this but I also don't have time or spare cash to produce and distribute these myself). I always designed event patches before, but now with cafepress, well, it's easier to get items made that people want.



(Now I gotta remember how to get that text on the bottom flipped the right way in Illustrator ... been so many years since I designed one of these ... and, no, I didn't do the P40, I ordered a Warbirds clipart CD.)

edit ...

(Thanks, Dux ... its fixed now ...)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2004, 11:19:43 AM by DoKGonZo »