p38 DM

[Karnak]

If it were a mater of the bullets peircing the windscreen then single engined fighters would have the same problem with pilot wounds, but they don't.

Therefore is must be the area below the windscreen.

I just don't think that 7.92mm rounds should be that effective.  If they were then I want to get all that useless armor off the airplane so it'll fly better.

[killnu]

all that i know, is that this crap is getting old real fast.  just did 2 hops in my shot amount of time allotted, and got 2 pilot wounds from dead 6 shots, not coming down, no angle, dead 6 shots.  one from yak and other a 51? i think.  getting old.
~S~
PS. i did notice after pilot wound, that it took more damage than usual for me tho.  big help  lol

[GScholz]

That armour is nothing compared to having an engine up front. British tests concluded that the seat/back armour on the Mossie or spit (I forget) would stop 96% of the 7.92mm rounds fired from the rear. That means on average every 25th round penetrated.

I know these big metal machines look tough, but never forget that in essence you're sitting in a coffin made of thin aluminum and glass.

[killnu]

no, the 38 does not have an engine up front.  but...it does have 4x50cal MGs and a 20mm cannon.   but i guess that would provide very little if any protection.

~S~

[Karnak]

Hmmm.  Feels more like one in two 7.92mm rounds will penetrate.  I know that they are fragile and I know that the unarmored areas offer literally no protection.  It just seems that very brief hits from Panzers always result in a pilot wound.

Do you know what range and angle that test was from?

[Kweassa]

If it were a mater of the bullets peircing the windscreen then single engined fighters would have the same problem with pilot wounds, but they don't.

 Not true.

 I particularly enjoy tank hunting  and I've tried all types of planes against tanks. The pintle guns always have a high chance of inflicting damage when I do a strafing pass - particularly with slow aircraft, from Hurricane2D to even the IL-2.

 

I just don't think that 7.92mm rounds should be that effective. If they were then I want to get all that useless armor off the airplane so it'll fly better.

 This is sounding more and more like the old gunnery debate. Just like in those old debates, In terms of ballistics or physics there's no reason that a simple pintle machine gun cannot penetrate glass cockpits. Especially if the kinetic impact is amplified by an airplane speeding towards the bullet.

 However, again, just like the old gunnery debates, there's more factors involved than just ballistics or physics. Like said, there's no on earth a tank commander would be stupid enough to leave the hatch wide open and enter a shooting contest against an aircraft.

 The only reason we do that in AH, is the hand-held pintle guns are super super easy to aim with, and the pintle guns rarely get damaged by themselves.

 
 IMO in concern with this particular issue with pilot damages when strafing vehicles, I'd say its the GV model that has to be changed, instead of the planes. I'm sure you'd hardly ever get pilot wound, if pintle guns were damaged or its gunner killed easily when an aircraft strafes it.

[GScholz]

No the guns would provide protection, but the ammo would be more of a hazzard. I also see that the P-38 has no belly armor. Most single engined fighters have equipment under the cockpit, like landing gear or radiators. Perhaps this is a weakness modelled in the DM?

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm sure you'd hardly ever get pilot wound, if pintle guns were damaged or its gunner killed easily when an aircraft strafes it.

I don't think it would make any difference as the pilot wound usually occurs nearly instantly when I level onto the straffing run.  Most often before I have even pulled the trigger.  Sure, the gunner would die seconds later, but the wound would still be inflicted.

I usually open fire on GVs at about 600 yards.


GScholz,

Yeah, I've read some accounts of fighters getting hit in the ammo bay.  Not good.  AH doesn't seem to model that though.

[Kweassa]

all that i know, is that this crap is getting old real fast. just did 2 hops in my shot amount of time allotted, and got 2 pilot wounds from dead 6 shots, not coming down, no angle, dead 6 shots. one from yak and other a 51? i think. getting old.

 Also, there could be another explanation for this. If the new "hit resolution" is more finer than it used to be, then a lot of rounds that used to connect on the thin tail booms, would now pass over(or under.. but not likely) in AH2, and connect at the cockpit.

 In short, in AH1 you'd probably dead, since the tail boom would be hit and come off. In AH2, those shots miss the tail boom and connect at the cockpit.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Karnak
Hmmm.  Feels more like one in two 7.92mm rounds will penetrate.  I know that they are fragile and I know that the unarmored areas offer literally no protection.  It just seems that very brief hits from Panzers always result in a pilot wound.

Do you know what range and angle that test was from?

No, I don't remember much of the specifics. All the shots were from 6 o'clock IIRC.

[Karnak]

I recall that on late war Spitfires there was an armor plate in front of the ammo bays.  That is how serious they felt it was.  Of the very few places they spent weight to armor, the ammo bays were included.

[Kweassa]

I don't think it would make any difference as the pilot wound usually occurs nearly instantly when I level onto the straffing run.

 Because, it is highly likely that the gunner was already shooting at you. Just when you level out, is when he decisvely takes his aim. It's at that point when the barrage of 7.92mms begin to connect.

Most often before I have even pulled the trigger. Sure, the gunner would die seconds later, but the wound would still be inflicted.

I usually open fire on GVs at about 600 yards.

 I was more of thinking that if the GV damage model ever changes to how I see fit, an open hatch and a gunner sitting in that place would increase the chance of tank turret being disabled.

 So, if an aircraft approaches, the driver would move away from the pintle gun postion - "shutting the doors" and hide... at least, that's what I was thinking of.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Because, it is highly likely that the gunner was already shooting at you. Just when you level out, is when he decisvely takes his aim. It's at that point when the barrage of 7.92mms begin to connect.

He'd have to be a much better shot than I.  I can never hit a banking aircraft with those pintle guns.  Heck, I have enough trouble in AH2 hitting them when they're coming right for me.  I didn't have that problem in AH1.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Karnak
GScholz,

Yeah, I've read some accounts of fighters getting hit in the ammo bay.  Not good.  AH doesn't seem to model that though.

Yeah, there is a guncam clip of a Fw190A suffering from catastrophic ammo explosion in the left wing. Entire wing disintegrates spectacularly and sends the 190 spinning like a toy plane.


On thing that must be remembered is that even the smallest of weapons modelled in AH are capable of devastating damage. The 7.62mm NATO round is slightly less powerful than the .303 and 7.92mm Mauser. I've fired 50 rounds of 7.62mm N AP rounds from an MG-3 against an M113 APC at 400 meters, and not one round failed to penetrate the 1.5-inch thick hardened aluminum side armor. The few lucky fighters that survived cannon damage were usually only hit by one or two rounds.

[killnu]

well, kweassa, that does make some sense to me. maybe that is it.  thank you!  


i still dont like it.  
~S~