Why the Brewster?

[storch]

Originally posted by oboe
Here's an interesting statistic for you.   I read somewhere the Brewster actually produced more aces per airframe than even the P-51 Mustang.    I'm sure its owed all to the low production numbers and the phenomenal success the Finns had with it.   But I think I also read somewhere the Dutch had better than a 1:1 kill ratio with it in Java/Sumatra before their forces were overwhelmed.

I'd like to see it in the game someday.   I find the F4F plenty manueverable and sturdy as a brick house - the F2A would be even more manueverable but much less rugged and hard hitting with only 4x.50s.   Not sure it had self-sealing fuel tanks?

Plus there are some awesome skinning opportunities with this plane.   I'd like to see someone of Greebo's calibre go wild with early USN schemes, Dutch, Finnish, and RAF SE Asia patterns...

Some reports I read in a book on the Buffalo a while back had accounts by both Finn and Dutch pilots both of which did very well with it.  The little plane was described as flying like a frightened angel and that it was nearly unhittable in the hands of a good pilot.  I'll see if I can find that old book.  I bought it through the Military Book Club back in the '70s.

[Coolridr]

A significant user of the Buffalo was the Finnish Air Force. Though unloved by the British, Australians, Americans, Belgians and Kiwis, 44 Buffaloes were flown by the Finnish LLv24 Squadron, and the aircraft was beloved and found to be very effective in the hands of its Finnish pilots. No fewer than 12 pilots became aces in Buffaloes, and the aircraft is remembered fondly by many. (Quoted from Warbird Alley)


12 Pilots became aces huh? Not bad for such an old design compared to what they were up against..I say LETS DO IT

[Grits]

Originally posted by storch
Some reports I read in a book on the Buffalo a while back had accounts by both Finn and Dutch pilots both of which did very well with it.  The little plane was described as flying like a frightened angel and that it was nearly unhittable in the hands of a good pilot.  I'll see if I can find that old book.  I bought it through the Military Book Club back in the '70s.

Yet, we have the account of Erik Shilling in a mock dogfight with an RAF Buffalo:

Squadron Leader Brandt was flying the Brewster, and I believe he gained "Ace" status over England during the Battle of Britain. Brandt and I took off in formation, climbing to ten thousand feet
over Kyedaw.  We were flying to the east as we came over the airport, crossing the runway at ninety degrees.  When directly overhead, we made a 90 degree turn away from each other, which put us flying parallel to the runway. After a few seconds we turned back toward each other, coming down the centerline of the runway.

We met directly over the heads of those on the ground.  The combat was on as our wing tips passed, each pulling his plane into as small a circle as our ships were capable of turning.  Again, like many times before, I developed the circle into a 45 degree plane.  Each time at the top of the turn, with the Brewster below, I would pull back hard on the stick, doing a one quarter turn spin cutting across the circle, gaining a little each time.

When I finally locked onto his tail, Brandt, in a desperate attempt to dislodge me, dropped his gear and flaps, hoping I would overrun him.  I saw his flaps as they started down, so I pulled back on the stick instead of the power.  I was able to conserve energy by gaining altitude and at the same time losing speed, I stayed behind him.  When he finally decided what he was going to do next, I dove back down on his tail.  There was no doubt in my mind that I won fair and square, with no mistakes on Brandt's part.  I'm certain the P-40 was the better airplane.

I would not have thought the P-40B/C that the A.V.G. flew would be able to out turn a Buffalo, but there you have it. Pilot accounts are sometimes hard to reconcile, and many times are very contradictory.

[oboe]

But doesn't Schilling's account describe him doing a hi yo-yo, i.e. adding the vertical to gain the edge, versus the flat-turning Buffalo?    It sounds like he had a special technique at the top too, "one quarter turn spin".  

My guess is with Schilling's technique, he would've won had they even been in identical planes.

Another factor may be the documented case that the AVG's P-40s were anything but standard P-40B/Cs, having been assembled carefully from assorted parts that were hand-balanced/mated.   I think these P-40s had quite a bit better power loading than a factory P-40.   Widewing is an authority on that issue, if memory serves.

[DipStick]

Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
The Brewster to the Finns were like the ZEROs to the Japs.

Forgot to add, it should have Finnish markings.

[Grits]

Yup, the A.V.G. P-40's were special, and it sounds like Shilling did do a yo-yo. Still, if you compare an AH F4F-4 and the P-40B, there is no move you can do in the P-40B to beat an F4F-4 in any kind of turn fight. The assumption is that the RAF and especially the Finn Brewsters were better than the Navy's F2A (they were lighter), which by some pilots was thought to be better than the F4F-3, and the F4F-3 clearly had better performance than the F4F-4 in AH (same power, much more weight than F4F-3).

What this really illustrates to me is first hand pilot accounts, though interesting, are not too helpful in evaluating plane performance in general.

[storch]

Originally posted by Grits
Yup, the A.V.G. P-40's were special, and it sounds like Shilling did do a yo-yo. Still, if you compare an AH F4F-4 and the P-40B, there is no move you can do in the P-40B to beat an F4F-4 in any kind of turn fight. The assumption is that the RAF and especially the Finn Brewsters were better than the Navy's F2A (they were lighter), which by some pilots was thought to be better than the F4F-3, and the F4F-3 clearly had better performance than the F4F-4 in AH (same power, much more weight than F4F-3).

What this really illustrates to me is first hand pilot accounts, though interesting, are not too helpful in evaluating plane performance in general.

An yet it is the creative spark in the individual that often determines outcome.  The fact remains the Buffalo has a better K/D ratio than even the F-15 I believe.  Pilot accounts rule especially the account of the winning pilot.

[Grits]

Originally posted by storch
An yet it is the creative spark in the individual that often determines outcome.

Thats exactly why they are not terribly useful to evaluate plane performance in more than the most general way as the key element is the human one.

[Howitzer]

Originally posted by storch
An yet it is the creative spark in the individual that often determines outcome.  The fact remains the Buffalo has a better K/D ratio than even the F-15 I believe.  Pilot accounts rule especially the account of the winning pilot.

But still my question is, in the MA do you really think this plane could stand up to a 51 whether it be a B or a D?  Or a Dora/A5, N1k?  The planes in the era where it existed aren't flown much in the MA, going to have to have great tecniques to shoot down the late war birds in one.

[B17Skull12]

all you got to do in the brewster is have the dweeb pilot start to turn and he is toast.  also not to mentions it's BnZ capabilities aren't bad.

[Citabria]

b239 model is a heavy zeke that can dive without locking up. I'd fly it more than I fly the A6m for sure

f2a is a bloated overweight armored down pig. still more maneuverable than the f4f4 but not as good as the b239.

[storch]

Originally posted by Howitzer
But still my question is, in the MA do you really think this plane could stand up to a 51 whether it be a B or a D?  Or a Dora/A5, N1k?  The planes in the era where it existed aren't flown much in the MA, going to have to have great tecniques to shoot down the late war birds in one.

Well in the MA it may be a tough call.  I'm pretty sure that the Special events players and the CT players would welcome It's addition for those weeks when the play would be either Wake and Midway Islands, SE Asia or the Finn/Russo war.  In view of the rolling plane sets and evolving war front concept we are experimenting with in the CT the current plane set gap becomes blaringly evident.  It would certainly go a long way towards bringing back the Finnish Virtual Pilots which have left AH and are playing UbiSoft on Hyperlobby.  HTC is very fortunate that it's customer base is passionate and vocal.  There aren't many businesses where this combination exists.  I wish my customers made my life easier by tell me exactly what they wanted as opposed to having to carefully watch the trends.  We could use a Bf 109K.  FW 190 A1 and an A3 as well as an JU88G with the gun package in the nose, Me 410 with Nose Cannon and Schrage Musik.  A Fiat G55, Caproni Reggiane Re 2005 which interestingly enough flew both Axis and Allied simultaneously for a short time.  An A6M3, Ki-43, Ki-45, Ki-83 Ki-84, Ki-100.  We could stand a Gloster Gladiator, Spitfire MkVIII, a specific MkIX not the conglomoration we are currently flying.  An F2A, F4F-3, F6F-3.  P36, P39, P38J P40N, P47M, P51A, P51H, P63A.  Yak3, Yak9, La3, La9.  I know this represents a absolute mountain of work but If you aren't moving forward you are falling behind.  Life is dynamic and nothing stands still.  I'm almost certain this will probably never happen though.

[Karnak]

Storch,

We have the Bf109K-4 in all but name.  As I understand it the Bf109G-10 was added in it's place simply to give the 20mm option which the Bf109K-4 did not have.

The P-51H did not see service in WWII.  So unless you think that can of worms should be opened...

We need and early P-38 (or two), the P-38J offers nothing in terms of scenarios or MA play that the P-38L does not already.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by storch
Because it is the most successful fighter in all of history with a K/D ratio of like 40:1.   That would be the B239 Buffalo not the F2A Buffalo.  It easily whips the A6M2 in a turnfight if it is modelled properly.

First, the F-15 has a 80something - 0 combat record. Second people who say the Brewster Buffalo has the best  kill/death ratio of all time only look at what the Finns did with it and ignore all the other combat units that had the Buffalo and did horribly with it.

If all the Buffalo's losses were counted from every country that used them we wouldnt be seeing a 39-1 k/d ratio. Only the Finns had any kind of success with the Buffalo. Like the Wildcat, the Buffalo was outclassed by its opponents and was eventually replaced by all airforces (including the Finns).

[Panzzer]

Originally posted by Elfie
Like the Wildcat, the Buffalo was outclassed by its opponents and was eventually replaced by all airforces (including the Finns).

Yes, the Finnish Air Force now has Hornets.

But the Brewster Model 239 fighters were used by the Finnish Air Force until the war ended (peace with Soviet Union in september 1944, after that Finland fought the Lapland war against Germans). Last aerial victory of the Model 239's: October 3rd, 1944, 1Lt E. Teromaa flying BW-361 and SSgt O. Hietala flying BW-367 from HLeLv 26 shot down 2 German Ju 87s over Lonejärvi.

The last of the Brewsters in the Finnish Air Force were withdrawn from service in September 1948.