Best Climb Speed Con't for Nashwan

[Crumpp]

So at 182 mph, the 190 will pull out.
At a snails pace though

Yep, Angus bro.

After it left the spit pilot wondering what happenend in the zoom...

How much does the climb rate of a Spit LF IX (@ +18lb, @ +25lb) decrease when increased to the Fw190A-8's best climb speed?

Speeds are in IAS.  Not sure what you are asking but if it is how does altitude effect the Best climb?  Like everything else.  Since the Spitfire is a much better high Altitude performer I would say there is a point where the speeds merge and the Spitfire can climb directly following a 190.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Milo,

The Spits speed will settle to a point on the power curve.  The top of that curve (which is flat) is the best climb speed.  170 mph for the Merlin 66 (+25) Spitfire Mk IX.  160 mph for the Merlin 61 Spit we have in AH.

Crumpp

[mw]

Hello Milo:

"How much does the climb rate of a Spit LF IX (@ +18lb, @ +25lb) decrease when increased to the Fw190A-8's best climb speed?"

I'd have to look and see what I have of the Spit IX , but the Spit I example given suggests the answer would be "not much".

I think the better question though would be: what would be the speed of the Spit when climbing at the 190's best climb rate?  Its readily apparent that the answer would be: "faster than the 190"

[Angus]

Bottom line is, when the 190's zoomed away  after making a pass at say Spit V's, which would than have broken away is this.
The 190's came from above, had a good 100 mph advantage, even increased with the Spitties breaking, zooming away in a shallow climb at a Speed greater even than the Spits max level speed.
In a direct climb trial, odds are that the 190 will at its best cirkumstances move away at a snails pace, and from the monster-merlin-spits, not at all.

[MiloMorai]

What I am asking is, what is the rate of climb of the mentioned Spit at 182mph, or even 200mph?

Or to put it another way, at what speed for the mentioned Spit does its rate of climb match that of the mentioned Fw?

Looking for 'hard' numbers.


edit:

Yes Mike, that is where I am going.

Angus, for sure.

[bozon]

I'll join milo on that one.
a 160mph spit out climb a 160mph 190A5.
a 330mph spit is out climbed by a 330mph 190A5.

at what speed that both planes fly together at full throttle does the climbrate is equal?
Untill that speed, the spit can keep up and gain on the 190.

Bozon

[Karnak]

Well Crump?  I'm waiting.  Or would you rather go on using over cumbersome language?

Obviously the Spitfire LF.Mk IX will climb faster than the Fw190 at 182mph.  That is self evident.

It will, however be at a steeper angle and that will deny the Spit the continuous gun solution.  The Spit can use a zoom to get a temporary gun solution, but when the energy for the zoom runs out the Spitfire will have to either steepen it's climb angle or the allow the Fw190 to climb away from it.

You told me this is wrong after I posted it then you acted as though you were revealing it when you posted the same thing.


Which is it?  Right or wrong.  Make up your mind.

[Angus]

Well, my point about the monster-spitties climb vs the 190A is that there is no way the Spitties would have been able to trade 12 mph forward movement into 11 mph vertical movement, that's all. Since the 11 mph (1000 fpm) movement is well documented, I belive it is beyond doubt that those planes should have been able to follow the 190A at its preferred speed.

[Nashwan]

Obviously the Spitfire LF.Mk IX will climb faster than the Fw190 at 182mph. That is self evident.

It will, however be at a steeper angle and that will deny the Spit the continuous gun solution.

If you can climb at the same speed at a steeper angle, all you have to do is reduce throttle, and you can climb at the same speed at the same angle.

There will be minor angle of attack differences, but you get those in all conditions of flight, including level flight.

[Karnak]

Angus,

What I think Crump is arguing is that while the Spit can climb faster than the Fw190 at 182mph it needs a steeper angle to do so and because of that cannot simply follow the Fw190's exact path.  The Spit cannot maintain an indefinate gun solution.

He isn't arguing about climb rates.  He is talking about climb rates at a given AoA.  Using made up numbers, it would look something like this:

Spitfire LF.IX at a 18.5 degree AOA and 170mph climbs at 4,700fpm

Spitfire LF.IX at a 17.5 degree AoA and 182mph climbs at 4,500fpm

Fw190A-5 at a 14.5 degree AoA and 182mph climbs at a rate of 4,000fpm

Spitfire LF.IX at a 14.5 degree AoA and 182mph climbs at a rate of 3,500fpm

Therefore at 182mph the Spitfire has the choice of either matching/exceeding the Fw190's climb, or matching the Fw190's AoA.  It can do one or the other, but not both.


The problem is, Crump told me I was wrong the first time I posted this, and the second time I posted it he responded by saying no, and corrected me by describing what I had said in the above place.

He seems to not read other's posts.

[justin_g]

Fw190A-5 at a 14.5 degree AoA and 182mph climbs at a rate of 4,000fpm

Spitfire LF.IX at a 14.5 degree AoA and 182mph climbs at a rate of 3,500fpm

I know they are made up numbers, but what you describe is physically impossible. Speed, climb angle and climbrate are directly related.

Sin(climb angle) = Climbrate/Speed

 IF you climb at 182mph and an angle of 14.5º, you MUST be doing 4000fpm.

What my graph shows is that at 14.5º, the Spitfire would be able to fly at a climbrate and airspeed that exceeds the Fw 190. The only way it could not would be if the two planes power curves intersected at some speed equal to or lower than 182mph, which if you look at it is obviously not going to happen.

[Karnak]

justin_g,

I don't think so.  Different wing designs generate differing ammounts of lift.

What you are describing would only be true if wings were flat sheets that relied soley on AoA to generate lift.

Remember, all my numbers were made up, including the AoA numbers.  Move the decimal point one space to the left if it helps you picture it in your mind.

[justin_g]

Ah, I thought you were refering to the angle of the climb. AoA is of course a different thing.

[hitech]

Had that question also do you mean AOA, or climb angle Karnak?

Because AOA and lift are not very relivent to climb rate.

Climb rate is a function of drag and power.

HiTech

[bozon]

Originally posted by Karnak
What I think Crump is arguing is that while the Spit can climb faster than the Fw190 at 182mph it needs a steeper angle to do so and because of that cannot simply follow the Fw190's exact path.  The Spit cannot maintain an indefinate gun solution.
...
Therefore at 182mph the Spitfire has the choice of either matching/exceeding the Fw190's climb, or matching the Fw190's AoA.  It can do one or the other, but not both.

Karnak, don't be confused. you were right from the start.

AoA issues are irrelevant, it just add some offset to the direction of the plane from the velocity vector. If the spit want to maintain a constant gun solution all it has to do is climb at the same angle and keep it's velocity vector parallel to the 190's.

On the other half of the quote, I'm not sure if you cite Crumpp or stating your opinion. But If the spit can climb steeper at 182 mph, it can reduce throttle and climb exacly like the 190 AND it also can reduce it's climbrate a little and increase the speed - he'll climb exacly after (or parallel if you want the offset) the 190 and catch up with it if the 190 keep climbing at 182 mph.

He seems to not read other's posts.

and that's why this argument is dragged over 3 threads. I'm also to blame for replying.

Bozon