JABO and Buff attack.. Suicide writ LARGE.

[Hangtime]

Well.. this strikes me as odd.

Create a superb sim; with all the elements of WWII air combat. Provide the fighters with the complete loadouts for the prosecution of ground targets including rockets and bombs in all their varieties.

Provide the field with acks that will slice a fighter to shreds at beyond that fighters gun range and beyond the visual range of the fighters ability to accuratly deploy the bombs or rockets.

Provide the Buffs with guns that will shred the fighter beyond the effective range of ITS guns; and a bombsight that will literally plop a a single bomb into my footlocker from 30k+

Need I go on??

Theres no doubt there is a reason for this oddity.. what is it??

Hang



------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[214CaveJ]

I'll have ye to know that I've not done significant damage with me 17's (or 26's) guns since around version .42-.43
IMO the 50s are turned down too far for "playability issues".  There's a reason why it was the predominant armament for US fighters, and that's because it's a major damage dealer.

And I dinnae think I've ever seen ye footlocker from 30k (maybe cause I dinnae go that high? =) but it did look rather nice from about 8k =)

[Hangtime]

It's the one with the rook sheep tethered to it.  

And yah had no trouble slicing me outta the sky with yer guns from 800 yards last night.. twice. Well before my de-tuned play balanced 6 squeeking non-lethal-at-that-range .50's could do a damn thing to yer buff.  

Salute!

Hang

[214CaveJ]

I usually dinnae open fire until the bandits breaks d900 hang
unless it's one of those spray and pray at d1.3k+ bastages.  I hate those guys, they can pick my bird apart from back there, but I can't do anything to them.

Also hang, you're shooting at a target going away from you, which is a longer flight time for your shells, while I'm shooting at a target coming at me, which is a shorter flight time for my shells.  Mine are gonna have more energy when they hit.  That applies for a tail attack.  
In side attacks my shells still have a tad more smash because you're moving towards me alot faster than I'm moving towards you =)

[This message has been edited by 214CaveJ (edited 01-20-2000).]

[SC-GreyBeard]

Dunno what yer squeaking about,, on occassion I can ping guys at 1.8 from my 17's gun.

Won't do anything to ya,, but I'll ping ya from there...

Furhest out I've ever "Killed" anyone was about 1.2

inside that I'm usually taking a LOT of damage, even from the wimpy(tic) .50's..

conversely, I seldom ping a buff at more than 500, and I usually down 'em as my wingless plane shears their wing, or tail.....

(I really gotta stop "boring" in....)



------------------
GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew

[juzz]

CaveJ you must be a better shot than me on the gun turrets; but even I can get hits on enemies at 1.5k fairly consistantly, when we are both turning!

Hangtime, I agree fully:

The proper Acks must be developed soon!

There are already the models for 4 different acks in the game. A quad 20mm, a couple of medium sized(40mm?) single guns and the 88mm.

No more laser guided bombs - a real bombsight that requires SKILL to use would be a good idea.

[Hangtime]

D1.2 = 1200 yards. My .50's cant kill at that range.. no way. Yet yours can..

Cave.. Closure is what you are refering too.. your rounds have only the advantage of the diffrence in our relative speeds; not counting net air drag losses from me shooting forward, and you shooting aft. If you are doing 70mph less than I am while I close on your tail, the that's all the extra puch yer rounds have. And still, you kill regularly at 800 yards... better than double my effective range... sometimes triple my LETHAL effective range.

Certainly; it's stupid as hell to attempt a buff from the back.. but front quarter and HO attacks suffer from the same imbalance. The buffs guns are lethal at longer ranges than the fighters... just as the field acks are.

Rarely does anything survive inside your gun envelope to close to 400 yards.. the point at which my guns can BEGIN to do some significant damage. Mine are not lethal per-se till 200 or less. Further; I watched 3 fighters before mine load some lead into you before ya sent em into the silk.. and I put some in too. Yet all yer guns were still blazing away at the next guy in line as I went down without wings...

I have no complaint about how accurate you are.. yer one heluva gunner.. and gunning is not easy. Salute; sir, the problem is not you.. it's gun modeling and the sim's play balance thats in question.

And.. back to the opening question.. whats the REASON for the entire aspect of JABO being useless as a tactical aspect of the sim when the field defense systems make it impossible?

Hang



------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[combat23]

Was reading the other day about the USA's gun choice during WWII. The authors position was that the USA was primarly shooting at fighters and litely constructed Jap bombers. Ie: little or no armor. 50's put out a high voulme of shells that did enough damage to take out a manuvering fighter, Ie more shells in the air in a 3 second burst = better chance for a hit.

How tough or how much damage a plane can take is relative I am sure but I belive that most WWII fighters including the Jug could not take as much damage and survive as a B17,24,29.

Read where the Germans estimated it took up to twenty hits from a 20mm to bring down a b17. If that was true I wonder how many 50 cal hits it would take?

Now I know alot depends on where the rounds hit, point of convergance ect. also some of you(like RL) are great shots. I'm not. And I'm sure there will be more ajusting of the guns model as we go. Did't HT say the
Game will never be done?

All that said I sure wish I could get close enough to a ground target to hit it with a rocket.  Just once please please

See ya on line

[funked]

The acks are a joke.  If real acks were this good we wouldn't need the SDI Star Wars system...

[Dingy]

Hang,

I understand your frustration but I find myself having to agree with Cave here (God forbid I ever do that again).  They have toned down the lethality of the 17s guns.  I think what they have done is not necessarily decreased the damaged done to them but rather increased the dispersion of the rounds at distance so fewer buwwets connect at long distances.  I would imagine in real life that in a co-alt 1 v 1 fite between a B17 and any fighter, the B17 would usually win.  The B17 can just take a HELLUVA lot more damage from those 50s than the fragile P51 could.

Now in regards to the 50s, I dont think they have lost any potency that other ammo hasnt lost.  Seems that the Spits cannon are doing less damage than they did too.  Torque was saying that hes noticed a drop in ammo lethality recently too.  

-Ding

[214CaveJ]

Thank you Hang, and Salute! to you as well.  There are several pilots out there who will break off thier attack and ignore my 17 if they know it's me (even got one on film telling me he'd a left me alone if he knew it were me =), and you came in after 3 others.

This discussion is leading me to wonder if the 50s in the fighters have been turned down farther than the ones in the buffs, for "playability issues", because the buffs will always be a target and can't maneuver to get out of the line of fire.

Maybe they have the lethality dropping off too much?  I've wondered about this for a bit.  Been many a time I've been killed by a 'spray&pray' spit that was d1.2k on my FE and I had started firing when I saw him start, hoping me shots would cause him to break and pick a different line or distract him enough to miss.  But this spit will more often not take one of me wings off and fly away with very little, or more often, no damage.  If they're gonna try to turn things down for playability, this is one thing that needs to be looked at IMO.  I always get a tad nervous when I see a spit setting up for spray&pray at d1.2k or greater because of this.

[Hangtime]

I'm not frustrated...   I'm curious.

It's obvious that something is 'up'.. and I'm wondering why we have the ATG loadouts avail; and why the acks are set up as so lethal that they cannot be used.

I'd much rather be able to load up the heavy ords package for my plane and procced to the target to be destroyed for some REAL mayhem.. but instead have to orbit the field to be attacked and moan for a buff driver to come over and hammer the place.

Oh.. and nearly forgot.. why do drop tanks do no damage to ground objects?? It was common for them to be used against ground targets of opportunity.. the first 'napalm'.

Again.. the subject was not meant to be a whine.. It's a question to HT and Pyro.. I'm curious, and I find it odd that the game is set up the way it is now. Certainly; I'd like to see this key issue addressed before we go to Pay for Play. Will it be fixed? Sure; I'm certain it will be. Still the question begs.. WHY is it this way now?

As for the buff guns.. no way they were as effective at the ranges modeled now; and I might add.. many more buffs died at the hands of fighters than the other way around. How many 'gunner aces' came out of the war??

And, of course; the buffs bomb accuracy is just.. well.. waaaaay of base.

salute!

Hang

[Ripsnort]

I have a quick and dirty solution, give us a 37mm or larger cannon that will reach out and touch someone beyond their .50 cal range..

Field ack is a bit strong, but when you're on the runway trying to take off, it's potentcy seems just about right!  

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
-Rip1- VF-101 Grim Reapers (RET)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
   Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977

[Phantom121]

Cave - I was one of those "long range" spits and managed to down you after a determined fight (had to eventually bail - shot up to bad to land).  Only the 20mm do any real damage a distance - when buff hunting I set convergence at 650, try to move around, and hope for a long range hit.  You and Grey are both exceptional shots and are very hard to take down. I imagine yall average 2 or 3 kills before being shot down.  Best shots are going straight up or straight down,  when I can set up for them (impossible if buff is higher than 20k).  George's make a better buff killer for me because it has 4 - 20mm and does a lot of damage in a hurry.  I was only using a spit because N1K's have outer 20's turned off (bug) til next version.  Buffs are very hard to kill from the rear (impossible with .50's) but that is the only choice when trying to "catch" a bomber over 20k especially before they destroy your base. I buff a lot myself and have almost never been shot down over 20k (unless sleeping) but perfer bombing at 12 to 15 (or lower even 7.5 to 8), just fell it is more realistic.  But when I get low I am very vunerable to front quarter, or passes from underneath or overhead.  Enough rabbit chasing, thread was about gun modelling.  I agree it has changed, significally some way or another (Pyro says no).  I suspect the damage model tweaks are what is changing gunnery.  I notice a lot more pings(on me) that do little or no damage at long range (d800+ must be ricochets) and when firing a lot more hit sprites that seem to just bounce off (TT's rubber bullets I guess).

[juzz]

 

If he was shooting at you from in front, the best thing to do was to go straight at him. Those four forward-pointing guns firing at him, and the thought that  if he did manage to hit you, he'd probably just bring you down on top of him, that made him keep his head down.

Quote from a A-20G Havoc pilot concerning AAA during low-level missions.