Author Topic: Are CVs too soft??  (Read 2097 times)

Offline DoKGonZo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
      • http://www.gonzoville.com
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2004, 04:26:20 PM »
How about this for an idea ... what if the first torpedo hit on a CV stopped the CV fleet in addition to doing physical damage? If you can get a Ju88 or Avenger or Kate in there, you can stiop the whole deal in its tracks and then Jabo it to oblivion. Then if you harden up the ships a little it makes sense to torpedo the CV first so they provide better targets for dive-bombers.

And this isn't too far from reality as a solid torpedo hit usually at least impaired movement.

It also creates a useful specialty for players to learn - torpedo bombing. Just as a good tank-buster plane makes that specialty something useful to master.


Oh ... and yeah ... lets have them explode big time instead of just slipping under the waves. Just think how much better "Titanic" would have been if the ship had exploded at the end.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 04:29:24 PM by DoKGonZo »

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10226
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2004, 04:33:04 PM »
I like that Idea Dok.

The one think I bleive needs work tho is the torps. They just seem to "sensitive" to how they are being dropped. If you go 1 ft over max drop alt or 1 mph over max drop speed they wont work.

Seems a little crazy.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2004, 05:13:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
The one think I bleive needs work tho is the torps. They just seem to "sensitive" to how they are being dropped. If you go 1 ft over max drop alt or 1 mph over max drop speed they wont work.

Seems a little crazy.

Solution:

Model Japanese torpedoes for the B5N2 and Ki-67.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline whels

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1517
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2004, 05:38:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
BTW a single 110 CANNOT kill a Cv by itself unless it was already pretty soft to begin with.

I  



umm Dred,  wrong.

a 110G2 with guns(4x20mms  2x30mms) only can sink a undamaged CV, in 2 passes if
it survivies the ack. ive done it several times.

1 time i made run on new CV in 110g2, got killed on etend after straff pass, a friendly La7 who was with me, finished off CV
with gun 3 hit flashs of his guns.

whels

Offline CMC Airboss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 705
      • http://www.cutthroats.com
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2004, 05:46:24 PM »
Points well taken concerning the catestrophic damage that a cannon-armed fighter can cause to a CV.  

Aside from the destruction of gun emplacements, I think the real problem is that there is too much of an all or nothing aspect to damage vs. destruction.  I'm wondering if it would be possible to add successive and additive effects with bombing such as:  Half speed cruising (as though a set of boilers went offline) or a stuck rudder making quick heading changes much more difficult.

MiG

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17775
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2004, 05:53:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by whels
umm Dred,  wrong.

a 110G2 with guns(4x20mms  2x30mms) only can sink a undamaged CV, in 2 passes if
it survivies the ack. ive done it several times.

1 time i made run on new CV in 110g2, got killed on etend after straff pass, a friendly La7 who was with me, finished off CV
with gun 3 hit flashs of his guns.

whels


Well all I can say is I've never managed to do it.

Hmm well if thats the case then a 262 should be able to do it easly in one pass.
Haveta give it a shot. just for chuckles
Rarely use my perks on anything anyway
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2004, 06:11:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CMC Airboss
How many carriers in WW2 could sustain seven (7) 1000lb bomb hits to the flight deck without any impediment to flight operations?  I would argue that our carriers are much "harder" than their WW2 era counterparts.  

Here is the USS Franklin after just 2 bomb hits to the flight deck

That damage took the "Big Ben" out of the war.

MiG


AH's CVs are certainly "hard" enough... The problem is that the AH CV task force puts up a feeble ack blanket. By 1944, only 8% of Japanese aircraft getting past the BARCAP survived the tornado of anti-aircraft fire that would come up. Level bombers, such at the B-17 could not get within 10,000 yards of a CV because the radar ranged 5" guns would obliterate them. Smaller aircraft, coming in alone, could sneak in closer due to their smaller radar signature.

Also, AH's 40mm gun mounts don't shoot VT fused rounds, relying on direct hits instead. If AH's ships put up the fire power that the real one did, sinking a CV would take dozens of sorties, maybe even more than 100.

While our CVs are anything but historic, they are adequate for game play.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline DoKGonZo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
      • http://www.gonzoville.com
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2004, 06:13:38 PM »
Sounds like there's plenty of ideas for HT to chew on here.

The thing I just hope is that the final answer is one which adds to the game instead of takes away. Simply adding AAA really takes away because it creates a mobile ack hugger zone. Simply hardening ships only means the current style of attack takes longer to be over with already.

If you combine parts of each of these, and maybe give torpedoes the extra capability I mentioned above so that there's a viable counter to the tougher CV fleets (i.e. stop 'em in their tracks so B17's can blast the poop out of them), then you've added a new speciality to learn and some real multi-role tactics to the job of taking down a CV group.

Offline nopoop

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3211
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2004, 08:05:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
(i.e. stop 'em in their tracks so B17's can blast the poop out of them)


So..

What did I do know ??
nopoop

It's ALL about the fight..

Offline DrDea

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3341
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2004, 08:48:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CMC Airboss
How many carriers in WW2 could sustain seven (7) 1000lb bomb hits to the flight deck without any impediment to flight operations?  I would argue that our carriers are much "harder" than their WW2 era counterparts.  

Here is the USS Franklin after just 2 bomb hits to the flight deck

That damage took the "Big Ben" out of the war.

MiG


 Jesus.It twisted it off its axis.Thats some serious damage.The fargin think warped !!!:eek:
The Flying Circus.Were just like you.Only prettier.

FSO 334 Flying Eagles. Fencers Heros.

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2004, 09:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DrDea
Jesus.It twisted it off its axis.Thats some serious damage.The fargin think warped !!!:eek:


     It's just listing.  The bomb damage was extensive though, put
some enormous holes in the flight deck that had to be repaired
back in the states.
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2004, 09:14:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DrDea
Jesus.It twisted it off its axis.Thats some serious damage.The fargin think warped !!!:eek:

Portions of the flight deck are obsucured and bled out by the lighting in that photo and that gives it the illusion of having warped.

As I recall they gave the order to abond ship twice as they fought to save her and each time manged to avoid losing her.  It was really, really close though.  It was only through the excellent damage control of the US Navy that she didn't go down.

Here is a shot as the USS Franklin entered New York harbor:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 09:17:09 PM by Karnak »
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2004, 09:17:52 PM »
CVs are more or less fine IMO. It all comes down to what kind of CAP the players are willing to put up.

 If everybody is saying "geez, I don't want to fly a such a boring task" then there's no on earth a way that people will be satisifed with the CV. It's basically asking for the game/system to compensate for the lack of brains and organization due to the laziness.

 In reality, assuming an equal number of forces collide, a CV discovered is a CV dead. The battles in the Pacific rotated around long hours of searching, using brains, trying to figure out where the enemy CV is. Launching the first strike was THE most important aspect of CV attack. Since the MA is very limited, naturally, setting up a good CAP becomes even moreso important than anything else.

 Widewing mentions only 8% of aircraft got through BARCAP, but lets not forget that 8% was enough to cause high levels of alarm in the ranks of the US Navy. The Kamikazes themselves would never have stopped Japan from defeat, but the destruction they caused was sheer terror. A single plane smashing into a ship would easily cripple it, and would create hundreds of casualties.

 Now, compare that to the MA, where the opposing forces are rarely in a bad condition as Japan was, capable of putting massive number of respawning planes in the air. In the MA, one must assume that every enemy aircraft near the CV is potentially a kamikaze. If a CV stays in a furball area one must assume, that its gonna go down sooner or later.

 The largest strengths of a CV lies in the fact that its a mobile airfield, capable of silently approaching an enemy base and striking it.

 If a CV-launched assault to a nearby land base does not achieve total air superiority within minutes of first strike, then it's basically piss-poor tactics for the 'admiral'.

 If a large furball grows around the CV then its a failure. The strengths of the CV - stealth and mobility - is quickly compromised, and it soon turns into an all-out air battle with one side using a limited plane set, and the other using a full plane set. In that condition - the CV will go down, if it stays there.

 You guys should be thinking of ways to avoid that situation, before complaining the CV is too weak. It's the same thing as A2A combat - if a bogey latches behind you, you're basically dead. One should be thinking of not letting that situation commence in the first place, instead of complaining the plane is too weak against gunfire.  

 ....


 Ofcourse, some situations are unavoidable. The MA is a '45 arena with late war monster planes carrying some 2000~5000lbs of ordnance and diving into the CV at speeds which most planes cannot catch. There are also the problems of lame-prettythang deck-running buffs and dive-bombing buffs. These problems should be addressed.

 However, despite all that, with proper discretion the CV can be protected for a long time if people do it right.

 Unfortunately, people just don't do it right.

Offline Halo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3222
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2004, 11:20:46 PM »
Good analysis, Kweassa.  Plastic ducks in bathtubs have more sense than skippers who drive CVs right up to hostile airfields.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. (Seneca, 1st century AD, et al)
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless beauty. (Anne Herbert, 1982, Sausalito, CA)
Paramedic to Perkaholics Anonymous

Offline Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4296
      • Wait For It
Are CVs too soft??
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2004, 11:58:50 PM »
Until they stop getting killed by suicide tards over and over... cv's will never be hard enough.

Tumor
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann