Suicide diving level bombers

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Easyscor
Depending on the year, a B-17 had a crew of 9-10 men to look out for bandits and an intercom to instantly alert the rest of the crew.  For this reason the bombers should continue to have exterior views from all positions.

It can't be helped if dweebs abuse exterior views to dive bomb with the heavies but IMO removing exterior views isn't the answer.  Hitech has said he hasn’t seen enough of this to consider it a problem so until it’s happening much more often I wouldn’t expect anything to change.

If it becomes something they decide to fix I hope it will be to disable the bomb release or arming based on angle to the horizon if in B-17s or Lancasters or any bombers that launch as a formation.

I dont think anyone wants to see exterioir views change on the bombers for the exact reasons you mentioned. Though I personally would like you to be able to have more then one person gunning your plane at a time.
the Disableing of exterior views should only be from the bombadiers position.
 And the bombadier should be the only position you can drop bombs from. Not the pilot.

With autolevel in place this would prevent the dive bombing lancs and 17's
and disabling exterior views from the bombadiers position would make it less like an arcade game and more a step towards the realism they seem to be trying to accomplish here

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Easyscor
[B.

Just because it's the MA doesn't mean you should "do whatever it takes in the MA to get the job done and i dont think we should change that." IMO that attitude is one of the problems with game play in the MA. [/B]

Agreed wholeheartedly

Only you should have said MAJOR problems LOL

[ace31st]

look guys,

im all for NOE raids but im against the dweebiness of the cv killing divebombing bombers.

when i attack a base NOE, i DONT dive bomb with my lancs, i fly straight and level.

i misunderstood the position of the topic. sorrry


ACE

[Simaril]

Here's an easy suggestion -- before dropping from an internal bay, there is already code that checks to see if bay doors are open. Just add a couple lines that check the vertical climb indicator -- if its over 2 or under -2, send message that "bomb racks have jammed" and disable internal payload.

The Ju88 dive bombed, but with the external load, i think. The B25 commonly glide bombed, but I dont think it did high angle drops -- to be honest, I'm not sure anybody's gravity driven drop rack engineering was up to the task in the 40s.







To be honest, I think there are a lot more important play balance issues than this around right now. Dive bombing dweebs are dweebs, like vox cussing dweebs are dweebs. Just ignore 'em, or kill 'em.       Since this code fix seems so easy, its probably worth doing.........

[CavemanJ]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Not just at CV's ... I saw flight after flight of Lancs coming in at like 3K to some vehicle base on furball island. And it still took a couple tries for them to get the VH's.

Maybe just make the minimum fuse altitude 5000ft AGL for level bombers. Maybe THEN people would use torpedo bombers against ships.

I prefer using torps against the fleets.  It's fun to take in Ju88s with fish and sink a carrier.  It's even possible to get through fighter cover and sink the flattop... but the ai ack is rediculous.. it starts shooting before you're close enough to drop the torps, and half the time you lose 2 of your 3 birds before you can drop the fish.  (note: this is experience from AH1)

Haven't tried it in AH2 yet, maybe the icons being under the planes will help against the 5" manned guns.. torp runs against manned guns were suicide runs with the icons popping up at 3.3k  Since you're at low alt for the torp run, the gunner just has to match the range indicator in the upper left corner with the range shown on the icon and lob AA shells.

If I wanted to have fun, I'd take the torpedo birds.. if I wanted the carrier dead ASAP I took a level bomber.

Oh, the level bombers can survive the ack (ai and manned) better than the torp birds can.  That might have something to do with it.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Now you've done it Stang.

The "well why don't you do a better job of protecting it" doodz are gonna be all over ya like white on rice.

you cant defend from this sort of dweebness.

well you can, but once those 5inch guns are down (or in the hands of someone who cant aim likeme ) the CV is going to the bottom.

CV doesnt need hardening, its defence does. low level attacks arnt dangerous anymore, ack is just useless, hence most of my p38 runs start from under 9k now, and dropping eggs at 4k, instead of starting from 14, and dropping at 9.......

but anyway, this isnt about cv's being "easy" to kill, its about dive bombing level bombers.......

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by ace31st
look guys,

im all for NOE raids but im against the dweebiness of the cv killing divebombing bombers.

when i attack a base NOE, i DONT dive bomb with my lancs, i fly straight and level.

i misunderstood the position of the topic. sorrry


ACE

Does that mean we're not driving you crazy anymore?

Darn. and we were working so hard at it too:p

[dragoon]

Originally posted by Stang
It MUST be stopped.  I watched b26's and lancs repeatedly divebomb a cv last night while trying to defend it.  When the tards got shot down they just came right back and did it repeatedly until they finally sank the CV.  A typical run for them was climb to 3k, head straight for the flattop, dive in, drop eggs at 800 feet and BOOM!  Total lameness, IMO the biggest problem with gameplay in the MA.  CV steams for hours somewhere and the tards come out of the woodwork in 2 secs and do this.  HTC please fix the buff model so level bombers must drop their bombs while level.  There is a bombsite for a reason... actually pretty easy to use, takes about 2oz of brains to figgure out.  LEARN IT DWEEBS!  

dont think i was there at that time but if there were suicide bombers upping like mad it would make a great killing spree. Remember being a nit and watching the JBs do this same thing. before they finally sunk it i had upwards of 30 kills on a flak gun.
Hellalotta fun.

[Buzzz]

This problem was addressed and solved in "another" now defunct online flight sim.

If you pulled too many g's or got the plane at too great of angle of pitch or roll the wings popped off and you and your plane became instant confetti scattered in the wind.

Someone else might remember... I think it was something like anything more than 30 degrees from level in a 4 engine buff and it was instant death.

This is one problem where the death penalty proved to be the best solution.

-Buzzz

[Stang]

dont think i was there at that time but if there were suicide bombers upping like mad it would make a great killing spree. Remember being a nit and watching the JBs do this same thing. before they finally sunk it i had upwards of 30 kills on a flak gun.

Yeah, it was a great killing spree for the first 4-5 formations they sent at me.  But after that they're gonna get a couple buffs through... hence the CV goes blub blub.  Then an la7 that just took off from the field catches my f6 ( i was at 7k when he started to chase me, he being at 500 feet).  With only one elevator due to buff guns i didn't have much of a chance vs the lala dweeb and his 3 friends.  Fun fight.  Yeah, right.  Maybe for the lala dweeb who thought he was the bomb flying that pos.  

Overlag- your post has no relevance to this topic, except to toot your own horn.  Score potatos tend to do that tho  

[SunKing]

Originally posted by Kweassa
My take on the fix:

1) internal bombload for level buffs will not be released if the plane's climb/decent rate is more than +/- 250ft per minute.

 

oo that is really good.

[glenmorangie]

The solution to the probem is to limit drops to accurate angles of dive.

If you drop a bomb in an F4U, for example, at a 90degree angle down, the bomb will hit the prop, killing you. The Stuka and the SBD are specifically equipped with mechanisms to swing the bomb beyond the prop.

If you dive-bomb in a B-26 or B-17, or any other level bomber, the bombs hang in the bay, because you've got to be near level to get them out.

It is also possible in the game to jettison ordinance or drop tanks while inverted, which should also cause BAD THINGS to happen.

The general reason bombing was done from high level is the Flak was less effective.  B-29 losses went way up when they moved to lower altitudes to gain accuracy.  Flak effectiveness increase at low level? Not by my vote, the stuff is bad enough already.

Another issue is fusing.  If you drop 6 1000lb bombs from 500 ft in a B-17, the blast will kill you when the bombs explode under your butt.  The B-25s mentioned earlier used parachutes and timed fuses to delay the explosions.  

Just a little tweaking of the flight models shoud do the trick...he said

Thoughts?

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by glenmorangie
...

Just a little tweaking of the flight models shoud do the trick...he said

Thoughts?

Well, I agree.

Folks often dogfight in fighters while heavy, and Jabo while travelling at Ludicrous Speed. I just have to believe that a 500 pound bomb on the wing of a P51 will get it's own ideas when 5 or 6 G's are applied. I have yet to see anything like this happen.

Likewise hard manouvers in a medium or heavy bomber with 1000's of pounds in the racks should have some kind of effect. On the bay racks if nothing else.


But, again, remember that you can't just take things away. If such changes are implemented then proper tactical bombers (A20, Ju87, Sturmi, Fw190F, Mosi, etc. ...) need a decent tactical bomb sight. It doesn't need to be the instant-on laser-guided deal like AW had, but you should be able to get reasonable accuracy in most flight profiles with proper use.

[Westy]

The AW "fixes" that were done during the waning days of it's existance were as bogus as the problems they sought to resolve.  For example an UNLADEN B17 could "dogfight:"  http://www.neam.org/58dogfight.htm
 And Spitfire wings did not rip during dives. AFAIK the Sptifire handled dive's better than any other WWII airplane.


Anyway. This topic has been hashed out many times over the past few years. Hopefully someday soon there willbe some changes. IMO what DoK said above is a prime solution.  Model airfame stress, if HiTech's software is able,  and there's no need for silly "bandaids"

[Tilt]

Having suggested the above fixes I suppose the ultimate is to model the combined effects of AoA and G forces on internally held ordinance..........

This would require considerable work IMO but to eventually end up with a model that said

"internal ordinance will jam if attempted to be released beyond +/- # AoA"

"internal ordinance will jam if subjected to more than # positive or # negative G prior to release"

The problems will be those of adjusting these values for various ac in a manner that reproduces the actuality.

In the absence of this i would return to the need to restrict  formations to "bombers" which must release internal ordinance via F6 allowing single only "attack bombers" to use pilot release of external ordinance.