Author Topic: Carriers  (Read 943 times)

Offline Buzzz

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Carriers
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2004, 12:49:25 PM »
I might be wrong... but... I think the suggestion that started this discussion was leaning more towards having damage modeled on CVs kind of like it currently is modeled on Aircraft.  Not just simply have it either totally operational or dead but to offer some conditions and situations in between (depending on how much damage was applied and where it had been applied to).

I like that idea.  Damage modeling for Carriers.  It has endless possibilities for fun.  Take off the rudder, kill the engines, take out the pilot house.  The same damage catagories a plane takes but in terms of the carrier.  Good idea Filth!

I also think straffing should not effect the CV other than perhaps killing the gun emplacements and the "imaginary" men that would be manning them.

-Buzzz

Offline Widewing

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Carriers
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2004, 01:21:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by flakbait
Essex-class carriers had no deck armor except the teak flight deck itself and a single 2.5" piece of STS on the hangar deck. Neither of which would stop a 250lbs bomb, let alone a 1,000lbs bomb. The armor "belt" tapered from 4" to 2.5" thick and was lousy


(Edited)

Typical Essex class armor was 2-3" on the hull, 4" over boiler rooms. 1.5" under the flight deck, 1.5" on the 01 level (immediately below the flight deck) and 3" on the hanger deck.

Having spent some years of my life aboard carriers, I have a good prespective on their weaknesses.  

You cannot eliminate the effect of non-armored decking and bulkheads in limiting penetration. No 250 pound bomb ever made will penerate through the flight deck, the 01, 02, 03 decks and then get through the 3" armored hanger deck. That's more than 9 inches of steel, and the related material in between decks. I'm assuming the Essex ships had decks above the hanger deck.

Princeton was a light carrier (CVL-23) built on a Light Cruiser hull. It's loss was the result of bad luck and secondary explosions. It was a 250 Kilogram bomb (not 250 lbs) that did the initial damage. It was not "blown apart" at all by the bomb hit... blast damage wasn't extensive. in fact, it was nearly saved but for the timidity of an Admiral (he was roundly criticized later), she would have survived.

Here's the story of the Princeton's sinking:

USS Princeton (CVL 23) was lost in an air attack in the Sibuyan Sea during the Battle for Leyte Gulf. On the 20th, Princeton, commanded by Capt. William H. Buracker, USN, sent her planes against airfields on Luzon to prevent Japanese land based aircraft attacks on Allied shipping massed in Leyte Gulf. On the 24th, Japanese planes from Clark and Nichols Fields found Princeton and her task group.

At 9:38 a.m. on Oct. 24, 1944, a lookout aboard Princeton spotted a single Japanese plane making a shallow dive on the ship. The plane had come out of low-hanging clouds and while under fire from Princeton's guns and those of other ships in company, dropped a 500-pound bomb from under 1,200 feet. It hit forward of the after elevator and slightly to port of the center line, crashed through the flight deck and hangar, then exploded. Flames shot down to the engineering spaces aft and back into the hangar. The explosion also knocked out the after fire-fighting system. Initial fires soon expanded.

The smoke was very thick and flowed across the after part of the ship. The heat from the fires and he dense smoke forced many of the men on the stern of the ship to jump overboard.

The first major explosions rocked the light carrier at about 10:02 a.m., engulfing the ship in more heavy billowing smoke and flame. The first blew out the after elevator; the second, shortly after the first, buckled the flight deck. The explosions also sent fragments of the ship flying in all directions, causing many casualties.

At about 10:10 a.m., USS Irwin (DD 794) went alongside the burning carrier to port. The seriously injured were lowered from the carrier onto the destroyer. Irwin continued to play hoses into the forward part of Princeton's hangar and to take aboard the carrier's crew to the point where between 600 and 700 men were packed like sardines on the small destroyer's decks.

The Task Force commander, Rear Adm. Forrest C. Sherman, seeing the heavy explosions, dispatched the cruiser USS Birmingham (CL 62) and another destroyer to the Princeton's assistance.

At about 10:55 a.m., Birmingham came alongside the blazing Princeton. Shortly after, USS Reno (CL 96) also came alongside but could not remain due to dense smoke and the scorching heat from the fires. As the crew worked the fires toward the after part of the carrier, Birmingham shifted back there as well. By about 1 p.m., enough progress had been made so that it looked as though the fires might be out within 20 or 30 minutes.

Just as Princeton's fires were about to be extinguished, Japanese aircraft were said to be in the vacinity. Immediately, at about 1:30 pm, Birmingham pulled away to get set for a fight that didn't come. Meanwhile, with very little fire-fighting capability on the carrier, Princeton's blazes grew again.

At 3:23 p.m., as Birmingham approached Princeton for the second time, the carrier's reserve bomb and torpedo stowage blew up, blowing away part of the stern. Shrapnel from the blast ripped across Birmingham killing 229 and injuring 420, far more than those hurt on the carrier.

The injured Birmingham was obliged to back off. Princeton had no fire-fighting capability left aboard, and at 4:40 p.m., Capt. Buracker left the carrier, the last to go. A message came from Rear Adm. Sherman: "Destroy Princeton. Remaining ships join task force." Shortly after 5 p.m., USS Irwin began to fire torpedoes at the burning hulk.

At 5:46 p.m., USS Reno relieved Irwin and at 5:49 p.m. the carrier's torpedo warhead storage exploded. Flames and debris shot up 1000 to 2000 feet. Princeton's forward section was gone and what was left of her after section appeared momentarily through the smoke. By 5:50 p.m., she disappeared. Ten officers and 98 enlisted men had been lost, but 1,361 of her crew survived.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: August 27, 2004, 01:34:09 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline mars01

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Carriers
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2004, 01:50:39 PM »
Hey Wide,

Great Read.

Quote
Just as Princeton's fires were about to be extinguished, Japanese aircraft were said to be in the vacinity. Immediately, at about 1:30 pm, Birmingham pulled away to get set for a fight that didn't come. Meanwhile, with very little fire-fighting capability on the carrier, Princeton's blazes grew again.

Was it the Admiral who orders the Birmingham away or just circumstance?

What was the timidity?

Offline FiLtH

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Carriers
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2004, 01:57:53 PM »
First off..I realize a real cv could be easily destroyed by a single bomb or torpedo.

  That said..that is real life. This is a game.

  How many people in ww2 had a chance to hit a carrier...and how often? Few Im sure. In here, everyone has a chance to whack one every 10-20 minutes. Few would be willing to sit at 25k over each task force, hoping to catch the lone suicidal typh trying to sink it at all costs.

  With the exception of kamikaze attacks, most strikes were a coordinated attack, with both torp and dive bombers involved. Two strikes against that same target would have been alot in one day. We cant compare what we do here, tactics, durability,and the constant air attack of 1-5 bombers with what really happened.

  Since we have to realize that, we also have to realize that the carriers themselves cant be treated totally realistic.

   Yes, what I proposed sounds like alot of bomb and torp damage. But as far as the game is concerned, and how it is played, by us all, adjustments have to be made to make up for it.

  The biggest letdown for me at the moment is the downtime a CV task force has in here, after traveling hours to a target area and having it killed so quickly. By giving it a harder damage threshold and the ability to repair it would require us to perform those coordinated strikes in order to sink it. To me its not simply having a carrier to use, but one to attack in a manner that would make folks work together.

   I like the idea someone had about making the LVTs spawn from something other than the carrier. Make a transport ship be part of the task force that acts as the VH, much like the CV would be the floating FH/BH. You could prevent endless LVT spawning by simply destroying the transport ship, while (if able) the CV could still function.

  Adding depth to any game creates many more options for fun missions, and tactics.  Im not saying what I proposed is the exact settings that would work best, I just think it would be a step in the right direction. Again..I dont make the game, I only play it :)

~AoM~

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2004, 02:29:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
Hey Wide,

Great Read.

 
Was it the Admiral who orders the Birmingham away or just circumstance?

What was the timidity?


Rear Admiral Sherman ordered the Birmingham to pull away from Princeton at the critical moment when the fires were almost out. He did this based upon a radio message intercepted from fighters 200 miles distant that reported possible enemy aircraft headed to a location the Admiral assumed was the general location of his TF. They realized later that there were no enemy aircraft...

Had the Birmingham not pulled away, and had she finished extinguishing the Princeton's fires, the CVL would have survived and the nearly 700 casualties aboard the Birmingham would have been avoided. Sherman had also managed to get the Wasp torpedoed out from under him, and was criticized for scuttling her too soon. As it was, it took three more American torpedos and several hours to sink Wasp.

Sherman was a sound officer and tactician, eventually rising to CNO. But, to quote Halsey; "Old Sherm isn't one for taking risks." In this case, the result was 229 families getting telegrams...

Sometimes it pays to take some risk, in war time it almost always leads to less casualties than caution does.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline mars01

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Carriers
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2004, 02:32:41 PM »
Good Stuff,

Thanks Wide.