Flat spin question

[DREDIOCK]

Sometimes on the merge at high speed you can stomp the rudder over in one direction and in effect get the plane to fly sideways for a brief period of time to get a deflection shot off.
I know I've done it and had it done to me.

I've also seen stunt planes do this only at much slower speeds.

Question is when done at such high speeds wouldnt this cause the plane to go into a flat spin like a frisbee?

[Kweassa]

I don't think the rudder authority alone is that powerful to shake the plane off from its momentum towards a certain direction to give it a flat spin.

 However, if an abrupt stick-pull is involved as well..

[LYNX]

ain't really techey to be able to answere ur question fully.  You, in a sense, have answered in away.  Rudder can make the plane "slip" like crabbing.  Arse follows nose type thing.

Spinning is when u loose lift on a wing.  No lift or enough air flow and gravity takes over.

To counter a spin use oposite RUDDER with nose pushed down.  Flat spins the same but prey more:(

[aSTAR]

Rudder is blocked out during the Flat Spin, you must initiate a normal spin by back presure on the elevators plus ailerons into the direction of the spin, when the normal spin is attained  then you can recover from the spin in the normal manner, aileron centered and stick centered or slightly forward, etc.
In real life it is a Heart Stopper, dual instruction a must for this manuver.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by aSTAR
Rudder is blocked out during the Flat Spin,

aSTAR I know this to be somewhat true as far as Jets go and fly by wire systems, the controls ignore any input from the pilot as far as rudder goes, can you show me hard data that says this is true also in prop type aircraft? I am curious?


also plenty of alt to allow time to  recover is needed, or you can hang it up and bail! ride the chute

[TequilaChaser]

here is a link to a thread/reply by an old WWII pilot  might be of some help

http://listarchives.his.com/dcpilots-l/dcpilots-l.9908/msg00264.html

also explains how you can back up a B17, not sure if it works the same way in AH2 though, might be interesting to test......


scroll down to get to the Flat spin part....

[slimm50]

"Remember the correct steps:

l. power off

2.full opposite rudder

3.forward on stick or wheel

You may not have all your composure when you find yourself in an unexpected
spin and thus, get the recovery steps 'out-of-order'

By doing step 3 before step 2 you will likely get into an "Accelerated
Spin". (A very rapid increase in rotation. . . .Most dangerous !"

Heh, I know I've experienced this in AH in my P51. Being that it was only a game, I finally threw up my hands and was LOL on the intercomm all the way to impact. I never knew until now why my efforts only succeeded in inducing such a violent spin. Thanks for the post.

[ALF]

Originally posted by slimm50


By doing step 3 before step 2 you will likely get into an "Accelerated
Spin". (A very rapid increase in rotation). . . .Most dangerous !"

 

But thats my favorite manuever.....in the F6 where if your good you can come out of it at will:D

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by ALF
But thats my favorite manuever.....in the F6 where if your good you can come out of it at will:D

wow...a self proclaimed spinfighter  


just ribbin ya.....ALF  

[Gixer]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I've also seen stunt planes do this only at much slower speeds.
 

What you may see a stunt plane doing and what you may see in a FS are too different things. And any desktop flight modeling is very basic at best.



...-Gixer

[glenmorangie]

To Spin:

1) You must be stalled.
2) You must be cross-controlled. ( slipping or skidding )

Transitioning from a flying angle of attack to a stalling AOA causes the stall regardless of airspeed.

Stomping the rudder will cause the cross-control, but will not cause a stall by itself, immediately.  The airplane will bank when the rudder is stomped, but there should be a delay before the stalling AOA is reached.

Stomping the rudder at high speed will cause the rudder or empennage to depart the aircraft.  The resulting loss of directional control may end in a spin, if the aircraft has not already completely come apart.  

There are limiters that increase control pressure with speed on many WWII aircraft to prevent the pilot from making a control input with enough authority to rip the control surface or supporting structure from the aircraft, but it is still possible to get it done.  I've been told that the reason the control surfaces remained fabric is that they would indicate over-g first and cause the mechanics to look closely at the airplane for further damage.

This is probably one of those cases where the flight model covers 90% of the envelope properly and the amount of code and processing power to get the accuracy increases exponentially with the percentage of realism.

Flat spins are caused by the CG characteristics of the airplane.  A P-39 is famous for this because of the aft CG.  A Mustang with the fuselage tank full is likely to do the same thing.  F-8 Crusaders were placarded against spins because they flat-spin. Recovery is problematic.  The Piper Cherokee is placarded against spins for the same reason.

Any flap incidence will keep you in the spin.  Any excess power will keep you in the spin.  Any cross control will keep you in the spin. Skydivers sliding to the aft bulkhead will keep you in the spin. ( That full aft-CG thing, again. Skydivers sliding to the foward bulkhead will cause an irrecoverable dive, but that is another story. ).

Recovery is: P-A-R-E

(P)ower off
(A)ilerons neutral
(R)udder opposite
(E)levator recover

Violently unloading the aircraft may be necessary, also. ( the Mustang in the game, particularly, which needs to stay unloaded throughout the recovery to get it done... )
Retracting the flaps is necessary.

Whew!

Okay, CFIs and Unlimited Aerobatic pilots correct me!

Private, ASEL....

[Hyrax81st]

Originally posted by glenmorangie
Recovery is: P-A-R-E

(P)ower off
(A)ilerons neutral
(R)udder opposite
(E)levator recover

Violently unloading the aircraft may be necessary, also. ( the Mustang in the game, particularly, which needs to stay unloaded throughout the recovery to get it done... )
Retracting the flaps is necessary.

Another "tool" in spin recovery is something I read once that I think I will attribute to Chuck Yeager's test pilot career. To interrupt air flow in his flat-spins he would drop gear and cause the plane to be pulled into a different "plane" (geometrically speaking). He would raise gear and perform the normal PARE maneuver. I have used this on more than one occasion when I attempted to snap-shot in a Mossy and entered a death flat-spin.

It works (if you have enough recovery altitude to begin with). I seem to come out of the stall-spins much faster.

[ALF]

Lowering the gear is almost mandatory in the F4u...that is unless you like stopping your spin with the ground.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by glenmorangie


Recovery is: P-A-R-E

(P)ower off
(A)ilerons neutral
(R)udder opposite
(E)levator recover

 

but you didn't tell them it was pronounced as   PAIR  


and if you panic voice it out

(P)ower off
(A)ilerons neutral
(R)udder opposite
(E)levator recover

[AaronM2]

hmmmmmmmm i just use rudder and stick i give it left rudder pull stick back left  does it does diffrent for other people But does it good 4 me