Putting Blackout to Good Use

[danish]

From a physologically point of view I cannot grasp that it should be possible to be more "G-resistant" if you have tried it several - or many - times.I understand that there are factors like overall fitness, or small tricks wich you can learn - basically before you sit in plane first time, or age (talking cerebrovascular system).

Reminds me somewhat of the danish bycykle coach who trained the team in dehydration - also in a beleaf that it could be "taught".

I dont say that I *know* it cannot be done, I just cant see it work.And mind you : just like the FM's I want facts ;=)


danish

[Downtown]

Doing the high G manuvers cause blood to flow to your head, or a low point in your body (your butt.)

High G pulls blood away from your brain and low Gs force blood too your brain.

Repeating the manuvers cause some streching of the veins. (This is generally Bad, especially forcing a lot of blood to the brain.)

The Straining exercise restrict the flow of blood, the muscles press on the veins and arteries. Thus slowing the flow of blood from the brain or too it.  So muscle training helps, and therefore with practice you can resist blackouts to some extent.

Now, blood vessles are generally fragile, and ofter burst under the strain.

Hence all the stunt pilots that have blood shot eyes, and nose bleeds easily.

Even now, there should be something in the game, if you pull too many Gs it should be fatal.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Very Opinionated Person.

[Jekyll]

 

If you hit the ctrl key every second, you build G tolerance. If you hit it every 1.1 or ever .9 seconds your tolerance isn't good. If you hit it too many times, anurism, not enough, you vomit all over your controls.

Geez Downtown STOP IT!!!

I had a mouthful of coffee when I read your post  

Now I gotta pull all these damn keys off, and I just KNOW I'll never put them back in the same positions  

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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[Downtown]

Well I was trying to think of a way that would simulate a Pilot doing the Grunting, straining manuvers in a high G situation.

Something that would require you to do it while you are flying.  It wouldn't be enough to allow players to hold down the Whatever Key while flying, just require them to keep inputing.  If they stop, they didn't concentrate on the G Tolerance Exercises.

That was the intent. I didn't really mean that I wanted HT to Model Vomit for the inside of the Aircraft, though from what I have read, there were often instances of extranious detrium in the aircraft when the landed.  Feces and Vomit being high on the list.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Very Opinionated Person.

[Rojo]

I like both of the main concepts being explored here, i.e. more G-tolerance over time and G-induced fatigue.  I'll throw another log on this fire by asking if late war Allied planes will have the early G-suits modeled?  I'm not sure exactly when they were introduced, of if anyone besides the USAAF was using them. However, in Bud Anderson's book "To Fly and Fight," he describes two different models used by Mustang pilots.  How about that for muddying the waters  .

Rojo (a.k.a. Sabre)

[Minotaur]

LOL

How do you model the H effect?  How many beers did the guy have last night?  How many times did the pilot over G in the last 24 hrs?  


G endurance = G duration - (Hangover / Cups of coffee) / (1 - G rate / age) * altitude / (repetitions + .8945)

Anyone see my point?  

Mino

[Downtown]

Yes, Minotaur, but its a start, and a were thinking of ways to get people to fly a little more realistically.

If HTC Choose to come up with a formula for improved G resistance, well sharing that formula with us would be asking for a beating.

He could call a flight surgeon, or contact the Air Farce for studies, punch some numbers up, and who are we to argue.

Just Us.

But it is a fact that pilots did learn OVER TIME how to increase their G tolerances.

If by flying like your life depended on it, increased you abilty to with stand G Forces, I say go for it.

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Very Opinionated Person.

[Seefo]

Well.. I have some real world experience with this.. not quantifiable numbers per se.. but experience. I'm a competition aerobatic pilot, and regularly pull over +9 and -8 during a competition flight. But it doesn't start that way. At the beginning of the practice season for me.. best I can regularly pull is about +/- 6G. I'll also start to gray pretty hard after about 15 minutes of practice. But after about 2 weeks of flying every day.. my tolerance is back to normal.. and I can pull +/- 9G (and have pulled over 10 on occasion) with regularity.

Seefo

[Downtown]

Seefo, do you have to see a flight surgeon?

How long have you been doing this.

Do you get nose bleeds?

Do you have any ideas how some form of tolerance could be modeled into the Sim?

What should be the penalty for too many, too much, too long?

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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Very Opinionated Person.

[chester]

DOWNTOWN,cheers for trying to find ways to cause people to fly more realistically!
  The adversion to having people die in these on-line things,i belive,is the biggest deterent to realistic behavior.
I've been told its to keep game balance.But it seems the KILL is the only thing of any importance.
Until someone starts to model the MAN inside the MACHINE we will only ever have meaningless, endless furballing.
I've been reading these boards for years.The complants in ALL the on-line things are the same.Think about it.What stops a real flyer from pulling some of the stupid things we see in these games?
I dont belive something like making you fly from a defalt base when killed would unbalance the game.Hell it might just be the start to A game.

[danish]

Seefo:
What I have been arguing is that fysiological mecanisms like the dynamics of vascular muscles can not be controlled by will, and can not be trained or taught: it belongs to the socalled vasomotorical system.
That is (I think) still a fact.

However, I have been rethinking ;=)
What was initially the discussion was if experience could better your tolerance.Now, between the vascular resistence in your body (wich can not be manipulated) and the brain (wich is the target of high\low pressure of G-forces)is a mass of things wich you *can* manipulate.Several have been mentioned above: fitness, age, musclemass in legs,"trics" G-suits, fatique ect.Several of these can without doubt be finetuned by experience in an actually demanding enviroment.Aerobatics or dogfighting.

So to conclude: I stand corrected.


;=)

danish

[Neil Reed]

I like the arguments on both sides here and I think that a good balance would be not to increase the pilots G-tolerance but instead to decrease his recovery rate as he gains in kills and in high-G manuvers.

By this I mean that if you rack up a lot of kills and always return from your missions without a scratch, but, you have never even come close to blackout, well your recovery rate would not improve. It would only get better as you practice your high-G manuvers and returned safely home after scoring some pionts in combat.

 

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Vortex

[Pongo]

If the idea is to encourage players to treat their lives more seriosly then why not put a 30 minute no fly in for bail outs and crash landings and a 2 hour no fly in for kills.
I would be interested in seeing the dynamic this would create.(I would see it mostly from the ground though...)
Certainly the beta is the time to try this before people are paying.

[Flathat]

Interesting idea, pongo, but a little too punitive IMHO. "Forced grounding" unduly penalizes the player who might only have a 30-min or 1-hr window to get in a sortie or two before RL sets in again. I know I'm personally in that boat a lot.Granted, in a flat-rate sim (ho-sanna, hey-sanna, sanna sanna ho-sanna... ) at least the meter isn't running, but time can still be a limiting factor.

However, it's nice to see that there are a great many of us who'd like to see more incentive to "fly real" than merely score. Anything done in this area would have to be done judiciously, and the "endless furball/vultchfest/etc" issue probably won't change too much until the strat system and ground vehicles are enabled.

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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail

[-kier-]

Why not send the pilot to a rear field (hospital) to recover? By that I mean anyone dashing forward wantonly into a melee would then be locked into a longer flight to the fight. This might even represent the depletion of material from forward fields, effectively forcing a squad to "stand down". You don't have a problem with paying pilots sitting still, and in cases where the fight is at the last field last-ditch efforts won't be cause for penalty for the defending pilots.