Author Topic: Unleash the mossie  (Read 2353 times)

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Hmmmm
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2004, 09:04:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scherf
"What [Caine] did in the Baltic" was to force one of the Junkers to ditch, the 5 or 6 members of the crew surviving and clambering out onto the fuselage. Caine then fired a four-second burst of cannon and mgs at them, closing to point-blank range. Rheinhard's uncle was one of those killed.

Scherf


Not very valiant of Caine.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2004, 09:25:42 AM »
Michael Herrick, born in Hastings on 5 May 1921, was educated at Wanganui Collegiate School. While still a student, he obtained his pilot's licence with the Hawkes Bay Aero Club.

In late 1938 Herrick gained a cadetship at RAF College, Cranwell, and left New Zealand in March 1939 to take up in April what was normally a two year course. The outbreak of war on 3 September led to the course being shortened and Herrick graduated on 7 March 1940. Ten days later he joined 25 Squadron, seven weeks before his nineteenth birthday.

Amongst other duties the Squadron's Blenheims were flying night defensive patrols. During one such patrol on 4 September 1940 Herrick intercepted and destroyed two He III's, the unit's first victories of the war. Nine days later he shot down another He III and this great success in these pioneer days of night interception was recognised by the award of a DFC.

In October 1940 the first Beaufighters arrived and the crews began retraining on the greatly improved airborne radar equipment. On 9 May 1941 Herrick damaged a Ju 88 and on 22 June shot one down.

Herrick was posted back to New Zealand for attachment to the RNZAF and arrived on 23 December 1941. After instructing for two months at the Flying Training School at Woodbourne, he then moved to Ohakea, where he remained until late June 1942, when he joined the newly-formed 15 Squadron at Whenuapai as a flight commander.

The unit had no aircraft, its promised Kittyhawks having been diverted to the Middle East. In response to an American request the squadron personnel sailed from Wellington in October 1942 for Tonga, where they took over the P-40's and equipment of the USAAF's 68 Pursuit Squadron. When 15 Squadron's CO was killed in a flying accident in March 1943 Herrick took command and led the unit through two operational tours until mid-December 1943.

Herrick and one of his flight commanders shot down a Zero floatplane, the first Japanese aircraft destroyed by New Zealand fighters in the Pacific. He shot down another Zero on 7 June, shared a Val dive-bomber on 1 October and a Zeke fighter on October 27. For services in the Pacific Herrick was awarded a Bar to his DFC in February 1944.

Herrick returned to Britain by sea, via the USA, to join 305 Squadron as a flight commander. The unit was a Polish fighter-bomber unit, equipped with Mosquitos and flying night operations, mostly against enemy airfields and V bomb launching sites.

In May 305 began daylight free-lance intrusions over enemy territory. Herrick took off on a morning sortie on 16 June with Flying Officer Turski as navigator. It was Herrick's first such operation and he headed for Denmark in company with another Mosquito, captained by Wing Commander Bob Braham. At the Jutland coast they parted, Herrick making for the airfield at Aalborg and Braham for Copenhagen.

Herrick's Mosquito was intercepted and shot down by a FW 190 flown by Leutnant Spreckels. Both Herrick and Turski baled out but were too low; Turski's body was found in the woods where the Mosquito crashed but Herrick, who had fallen into the sea, was not found until 4 July.

On 25 June Braham was also shot down by Speckels. When the two men met after the war the German said that Herrick had put up a brave fight.

Herrick was awarded the US Air Medal for gallantry in the Pacific. It was presented to his parents in Wellington in July 1944. Two other sons were also killed on active service. Brian Herrick, was lost on 24th November 1940 whilst flying a Blenheim with RAF Coastal Command. Dennis Herrick died on the 30th June 1941 after being brought down into the sea on the 26th June flying a Blenheim on an anti-shipping strike off Brest.



Kurt Welter, a LW ace with 34 confirmed kills shot down 7 Mosquitoes in his Fw190, so the Mossie was not invulnerable by any stretch of the imagination.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2004, 10:10:17 AM »
Edit: After checking, Kurt Welter was credited with 63 victories not 34. Of those 63 victories were 9 daylight Mosquitoes (7 in 190, 2 in 262) and 33 night Mosquitoes (unknown marks).
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2004, 10:43:32 AM »
GScholz,

Your intercept story is not specific enough.  It does not cover the intercept method used by the Fw190.  We don't know if it dove or caught a full out, running, Mossie in level flight.

The issue here is not wether a diving LW fighter could catch an FB.VI it is whether an LW fighter could catch one in a tail chase at the same altitude.  In the story MiloMorai posted it seems that the Fw190s closed enough for a burst at one of the Mossies but were unable to maintain that,

Incidentially the Mosquito in AH is Kipp's Mossie.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2004, 10:48:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The issue here is not wether a diving LW fighter could catch an FB.VI it is whether an LW fighter could catch one in a tail chase at the same altitude.


Why is that relevant?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2004, 10:54:12 AM »
Here we go again, another pissing contest over which was better.

Seems to me the message of the thread had something to do with removing the shroud exhausts would give the Mossie some increased speed as was done for Mossies operating in daylight.

I don't recall anyone saying they were invulnerable, just that it gave them the speed to escape.

It doesn't mean that under the right circumstances they couldn't be intercepted or shot down.  It doesn't mean it was all superior to the 109 or 190.

Kinda like saying because Mustangs, Tempests, Spit XIVs shot down 262s that it proves the 262 couldn't get away from them.

Bottom line of the thread is it would be nice to see the Mossie outfitted like it was for day operations since we don't have night in AH.

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2004, 11:06:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Why is that relevant?

Because if you remove equal altitude from the test I can proof positive demonstrate that the Spitfire Mk V can intercept La-7s.


When comparing aircraft capabilities you must keep the tests the same.  Capability tests are not tactical situation tests.

It is obvious that a higher LW fighter will be able to intercept a Mossie FB.VI.  That does not need to be clarified.  It is also fairly evident that once the interception has occurred the Mossie is in a really bad situation and stands little chance of winning.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2004, 11:12:44 AM »
Spit Vs can intercept La-7s. What are you trying to prove here? That the Mossie FB. VI with ejector exhaust was faster than the contemporary 1943 LW fighters on the deck? I though we had established that.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2004, 11:20:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Spit Vs can intercept La-7s. What are you trying to prove here? That the Mossie FB. VI with ejector exhaust was faster than the contemporary 1943 LW fighters on the deck? I though we had established that.

Nope, but now we have.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2004, 11:30:27 AM »
I though this earlier post of mine made my position perfectly clear. Under 7k the Mossie with ejector stacks would be faster than the 109G-6 and 190A-5.

Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
350 mph is slower than a 109G-6 and 190A-5 at 2k. So the LW fighters would need 2000 feet of alt to be faster up to about 7k when the LW fighters start getting a speed advantage at equal alt. Since the FB mark Mossie was a low alt intruder, the LW fighter would almost certainly have an altitude advantage whenever they managed to effect an interception. But that was not easy since the Mossie was so fast, and therein lays its strength, to avoid interception. If caught however they had little chance of escape.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Welter
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2004, 12:55:49 PM »
It has to be said, shot down some mossies.

It also has to be said, was full of sh*t.

There's a book coming out next year which will deal with Welter among other subjects, the guys who've researched it will give much better info. than I can, so until then, that's all of got to say on the Welter subject.

Cheers,

Scherf
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2004, 02:24:21 PM »
Scherf,

What is the title of that book going to be and what is it's subject matter?


One thing that I have read is that German nightfighters frequently claimed any twin engined bomber in 1944 and 1945 as a Mosquito.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15781
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2004, 02:31:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak

One thing that I have read is that German nightfighters frequently claimed any twin engined bomber in 1944 and 1945 as a Mosquito.


like any single engined fighter around 1940 was a Spitfire :D
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Book
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2004, 02:46:08 PM »
Hi Karnak:

It's called "Moskitojagd ueber Deutschland", and is (as I understand it) about the various units which were tasked with defending the Reich against Mosquito bombers.

Cheers,

Scherf
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Unleash the mossie
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2004, 02:53:45 PM »
Welter got most of his night Mossies in the 262 IIRC. The 262 would indeed catch a Mossie. He was also stationed in a squadron that was tasked with countering the Mossie intruders by day in early 1944 flying 190s.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."