Author Topic: Explain this and win the prize!  (Read 23991 times)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2004, 02:34:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp

Which is much more accurate than your assumptions.  


Let's see:

NADC formula (As Zigrat's sheet) in the best case:
Spitfire: about right
P-51: about 7 units of
Fw 190: about 8 units of
=> average error is about 5 units

My assumption in the worst case:
Spitfire: 3 units of
P-51: 5 units of (0,75)
Fw 190: 1 unit of
=> average error is 3 units

Even when I used 0,8 for all three, the average error was 4 units ie less than the generalized formula in the best case.

gripen
« Last Edit: September 14, 2004, 02:45:12 PM by gripen »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2004, 06:12:02 PM »
Quote
Even when I used 0,8 for all three, the average error was 4 units ie less than the generalized formula in the best case.



The Generalized formulas put the "e" factors at much closer than assuming the same value for all.

They also put the Spitfire in the lead for "e" factor.

The Mustand and the FW-190 are very close with the Mustang having a slight lead.

Spitfire = .871

FW-190 = .857

P51 = .861

Your calculations do not account for nearly the number of factors the theory behind the "general" formulas do, especially the more modern NACD formula.

The designers of these wings were well aware of the benefits of elliptical distrubtion and designed their wings accordingly.

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Low aspect ratio wings have nearly elliptic distributions of lift for a wide range of taper ratios and sweep angles. It takes a great deal of twist to change the distribution. Very high aspect ratio wings are quite sensitive, however and it is quite easy to depart from elliptic loading by picking a twist or taper ratio that is not quite right.
Note that many of these effects are similar and by combining the right twist and taper and sweep, we can achieve desirable distributions of lift and lift coefficient.


 http://www.desktopaero.com/appliedaero/wingdesign/geomnldistn.html

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Ideally, this drag contribution should be estimated for the individual airplane components, with factors such as the influence of wing leading edge geometry, wing camber, wing thickness ratio, wing sweep, pylon interference, fuselage upsweep, tail induced drag, power effects, etc. taken into account.


http://adg.stanford.edu/aa241/drag/induceddrag.html

All of these things are considered in the theory behind the "general" formulas.

You assume the Spitfire has perfect theoritical elliptical form.  In fact it does not.

http://www.onemetre.net/Download/Downwash/Downwash.htm

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Wing sweep is chosen almost exclusively for its desirable effect on transonic wave drag. (Sometimes for other reasons such as a c.g. problem or to move winglets back for greater directional stability.)


http://adg.stanford.edu/aa241/wingdesign/wingparams.html

None of your calculations account for the sweep of both the 190's wing and the P51's.

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2004, 07:05:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
The Generalized formulas put the "e" factors at much closer than assuming the same value for all.


As noted couple times above,  these generalized formulas seem to give rather high e factors. Therefore even a single value in the right ballpark is more accurate as seen above.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You assume the Spitfire has perfect theoritical elliptical form.


Only you have made such statement in these discussions.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
None of your calculations account for the sweep of both the 190's wing and the P51's.


This argument is laughable and speaks a lot about your knowledge.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2004, 07:51:31 PM »
Quote
As noted couple times above, these generalized formulas seem to give rather high e factors. Therefore even a single value in the right ballpark is more accurate as seen above.


No, your calculations don't have all the data.

At least according to you:


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We can also see that this very limited data set supports assumption



Means - We can just guess because we don't have the facts.

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This argument is laughable and speaks a lot about your knowledge.


Not really, I was refering to the fact that wingsweep:

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We can use this fact to design a wing which can fly at a high speed with a pressure distribution associated with a lower speed.


http://www.desktopaero.com/appliedaero/potential3d/sweeptheory.html

Adds benefits by reducing the CL and thereby reducing the CDi while going the same speed as an unswept wing like the Spitfire.


Crumpp

Offline Angus

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« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2004, 08:13:30 PM »
For Crumpp:
I've not been reading the whole thread, but glancing through it I came across some stuff about the Spitfire's elliptical form.

I have an article about this somewhere,  - I'll gladly scan it and send it to you. But shooting from memory:

1:The Elliptical form has about 10% less induced drag than a square wing with the same aspect ratio, or at least 5% less than any other wingform
2:A completely elliptical wing stallls entirely, since the lift distribution is equal. (It stalls LATER than any other wing of the same size, but when it stalls, it stalls!)
3: The Spitfire Wing was not completely elliptical, - but however very very close. I am not entirely sure about this, but I belive that the ellipse got "watered out" at the wingtips. Longer span then and at stall, the aircraft hanging on the tips, however a worse rollrate as a payback. I would not risk my neck on this particular item, but it's worth having a look into and I am sure that you guys will
:)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2004, 08:19:48 PM »
Oh, BTW, there is actually one type of an aerobatic plane about which has an elliptical wing. It is favoured for it's ability to go through an aerobatic sequence with the minimal loss of energy, - being somewhat underpowered. Just can't find the book about it right now.

Anyway, Gripen and Crumpp:
As much as I like you both, how about a slightly more friendly tone in your salvoes?
Gripen?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2004, 08:35:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
No, your calculations don't have all the data.

At least according to you:


That means that e factor data for 4 planes is a limited set,  large set would be say 40 planes. The calculations are based on the documented Cl /Cd data.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Adds benefits by reducing the CL and thereby reducing the CDi while going the same speed as an unswept wing like the Spitfire.


Why don't you just read your source:

"Furthermore, at a given angle of attack, the lift is reduced."

Basicly the drag for given lift increases with the sweep. That should be easy to understand.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2004, 09:05:54 PM »
Quote
but I belive that the ellipse got "watered out" at the wingtips.



Thanks Angus.  Appreciate your input bro.  The wingtips are most important part of the wing we are discussing.  Your absolutely right and that is the whole point.  The Spitfire had about the best efficiency factor of the 3 planes we are discussing.  It's lead is not that large though because of it's "watered out" ellipse.

It's Aspect Ratio and Taper Ratio are more responsible for its lead in "e" factor than it's "elliptical" wings.    



Quote
"Furthermore, at a given angle of attack, the lift is reduced."


No I understand it Gripen.  What you are leaving out is the fact that SPEED is increased.  A straight wing fighter going the same speed will work harder to achieve that speed.  
At the same speed the swept wings CL will be lowered proportional to the Cos of the angle of sweep thereby lowering it's CDi accordingly.

That is why swept wing fighters have such high approach speeds and such sharp AoA on approach.

Furthermore Oswald's efficiency factor is influenced by sweep, parasitic drag, and AR.

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The figure below shows a typical variation in e with aspect ratio, sweep, and CDp


Again this whole thing comes down too:

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Right now your trying to argue that the 190's design team, using a wing designed after the Spitfire, in a time when designers knew about the benefits of elliptical distribution, did not plan for it. Seems kinda silly to me.


Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2004, 09:08:05 PM »
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That means that e factor data for 4 planes is a limited set, large set would be say 40 planes. The calculations are based on the documented Cl /Cd data.


Using what calculations?  We have already seen the varying results of different formulas.  


Crumpp

Offline Starbird

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« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2004, 10:19:07 PM »
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Oh, BTW, there is actually one type of an aerobatic plane about which has an elliptical wing.


The only well known modern aerobatic aircraft I can think of is the  CAP 10B.

Offline gripen

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« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2004, 11:40:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
At the same speed the swept wings CL will be lowered proportional to the Cos of the angle of sweep thereby lowering it's CDi accordingly.  


So above you actually say that the lift coefficient of the swept wing will be lowered at given speed, that means that the angle of attack must be increased to reach given lift at this  speed if compared to the straight wing and that means higher induced drag at given speed. Great logic.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Using what calculations?  We have already seen the varying results of different formulas.  


If you know the Cd at the given Cl and AR, the e factor is easy to calculate. All what is needed is the drag polar of a given plane. If you can't figure out how, check Perkins&Hage or use solver.

Angus,
Please look other side's arguments a bit more closely.

gripen

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2004, 12:34:20 AM »
Maybe slightly off-topic, but here's Mark Drelas explanation of wing sweep:
(http://yarchive.net/air/sweep.html )

Sweeping a wing makes sense only if you are up against the Mach number limit, and want to fly faster, as with a jetliner.  It doesn't make sense if you want to fly higher, as with the U-2, or if Mach is of no concern, such as with a General Aviation aircraft.

The airfoils on a swept wing behave as though they were flying at a reduced speed, reduced Mach number, and reduced dynamic pressure.

  effective speed = V cos(L)
  effective Mach  = M cos(L)
  effective q     = 0.5 rho V^2 [cos(L)]^2

where L is the sweep angle, and V and M are the airplane's speed and Mach.

Imagine a straight-wing airplane flying at its maximum Mach number. As you sweep the wing in flight from 0 to L degrees, the available lift drops by a factor of [cos(L)]^2, and the Mach compressibility effects on the wing's airfoils decrease (weaker shocks, etc.).  You then increase the speed by a factor of 1/cos(L), so that the effective dynamic pressure and lift are increased back to their original levels. The effective Mach is also increased back to its original level.  In effect, you haven't done anything to the wing's lift or compressibility effects, but the airplane is now flying faster!

In reality, this isn't a complete freebie, since the skin friction drag has increased by a factor of [1/cos(L)]^2 -- the wing skin friction isn't affected by sweep very much, and feels the full brunt of the real dynamic pressure increase, just like the rest of the airplane.  So the overall L/D will typically decrease from the sweep. An airliner depends on the higher speed to more than compensate for the lower L/D and give better overall range (the product V x L/D is what appears in the range equation).  And of course flying faster gives faster revenue stream for the airlines.

Sweep doesn't make sense on slower piston and turboprop airplanes.  In general, if Mach number is not a speed-limiting factor, it makes more sense to get more speed by reducing the wing area.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2004, 06:15:53 AM »
Quote
If you know the Cd at the given Cl and AR, the e factor is easy to calculate. All what is needed is the drag polar of a given plane. If you can't figure out how, check Perkins&Hage or use solver.



I know that Gripen.

We have already seen that their is more than one formula for every parameter in aeronautics.

This is exactly what the NASA aeronautical engineer cautioned about when using data from WWII documents.  You have to know the formula used and the exact conditions of flight it was calculated for.

I have Perkins and Hage coming.  Additionally I searching for  the "Drag data for Aircraft" Focke-Wulf factory report and will get a copy.

So how did you get the CL and the drag for the FW-190?


Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2004, 07:34:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
We have already seen that their is more than one formula for every parameter in aeronautics.


Yes that's the reason for this thread. Estimating Oswalds's efficiency from  only one parameter (aspect ratio) seems to be  quite unaccurate.

The Cl/Cd data like drag polar actually contains all the needed variables given the testing is properly done.

Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
So how did you get the CL and the drag for the FW-190?


It's desbribed above; not with drag polar but taking samples from the span loading data set and comparing results to the drag polar data of the other planes. And the results supported each other well.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2004, 03:13:02 PM »
Quote
Yes that's the reason for this thread. Estimating Oswalds's efficiency from only one parameter (aspect ratio) seems to be quite unaccurate.


No actually it is quite accurate and has the Spitfires "e" down exactly.  I am sure if the FW-190 or P51 was your favourite plane they would be much closer as well.


Quote
It's desbribed above; not with drag polar but taking samples from the span loading data set and comparing results to the drag polar data of the other planes. And the results supported each other well.



Please point out the chart you are using to "guestimate" the FW-190's CL.  

http://www.thetongsweb.net/AH/EAAjanuary1999.pdf

Crumpp