Author Topic: simmer/gamer...community  (Read 2917 times)

Offline airbumba

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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2004, 11:50:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Gamers tend to be much more selfish, I find - willing to hack games if need be even if it ruins it for everyone else. Simmer's tend to respect the genre the game is representing, even to the point of not using Lancs as dive bombers (shocking, but true!).

     -DoK


Just what I was trying to convey, although it's better coming from someone with the proper crudentials. In that same line of thought, the gamer traits you point out, would also be a poor base for the structuring of a stable community.
I used to be a fatalist,
but that part of me died.

Offline airbumba

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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2004, 11:56:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by doobs
its all these damn dryerlint radishes being devoured by seagulls wearing snowshoes.


Who's this Dobbs guy? Oh it's Doobs...man you're out there dude. Radishes, lint...?

are you related to Lou Dobbs , on CNN?...oh it's Doobs....Lou Doobs?
I used to be a fatalist,
but that part of me died.

Offline KurtVW

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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2004, 12:11:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by airbumba
crudentials.



My favorite new word!!!  

It's just like Credentials... Except that its all Crud...

Oh god you've made me a happy man!

Offline mars01

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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2004, 12:32:26 AM »
Great Post Airbumba!!!

Interesting responses!  Very subjective and as two of you mentioned, it is a very fine line between gamers and simmers and also an immense grey area.  I would think we all have the ability to do both.

For example, I fancy myself a simmer, because I play and post as myself, and one of the most important things is the accuracy of the flight model and feel of the controls etc, but on the other hand I do want the great graphics and kick prettythang machine.  

On the side of community dynamics, which I think games like these and the internet give a facinating look at, I find it interesting how most posters have all commented, including myself, on the distinction which polarizes the community into two camps, gamers vs. simmers.

But no one has commented on the point of Airbumba's post, which was about conduct and treating others with more courtesy and respect.  To think before you flame or freak.  That is a great message that I think we all tend to forget from time to time.

WTG Airbumba, thanks for the reminder. :aok

AND

FU to all those guys that shot me down tonight,  :D (Just Kidding)

All

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2004, 12:44:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by airbumba
Just what I was trying to convey, although it's better coming from someone with the proper crudentials. In that same line of thought, the gamer traits you point out, would also be a poor base for the structuring of a stable community.


Well, as others have been pointing out lately, maybe the community just needs to be more demanding. And what scenario development showed me is that even the most blood-curdlingly inbred dweeb can be transformed into something resembling a decent pilot - given the right environment to do so. So there's hope, but change is needed at different levels.


So we have gamers arriving here and the only glory they can see is the "Megadweeb landed 5 kills in his La-7" messages ... and all the "wtg's" that come from it. What's the quickest way to get one of these? Vultch. In "the scores" they're just as good as someone who, like, shot down planes with their landing gear actually up, right?

So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills." Wow ... the only way to get that glory now is as a squad. While this will result in a lot of dweeb squads, at least now players are getting into a more structured environment.

Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10. Now players will start to compete as squadrons. Clans ... thats something gamers can get into, right? And if you limit the stats that get announced to those which can't be easily optimized with pork-based tactics, they will need to work for it.

Same deal when a base is captured - say which squadron got the troops in.

Then do one more thing on the kills landed message ... announce assists as well. People get so upset when they only get assists, but in the bigger picture the guy who lands 1 kill and 4 assists means some team-mates were able to land 4 kills and probably get home. I mean, they announce assists in hockey, right?

But ... make one ever-so-slight change to the way assists work. The assist can only come BEFORE the fatal shot was landed. This means that glomming onto a smoker in hopes of stealing the kill becomes a lot less profitable and the assist goes to the guy who took some risk setting up a kill for somone else.

So, a simple thing like changing the kill award messages could change a lot. And, by doing so we're teaching the gamers about how to achieve results through teamwork. Basically teach them that there's no "i" in "dweeb."

    -DoK

Offline Vudak

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Re: Re: simmer/gamer...community
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2004, 12:57:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Grimm

I say this because only the tinyest fraction of AH Folks have ever been to the Meca of Aviation,  I have been shocked at how few people here even know what it is.    If your really Truley an aviation person,  you would strive to make the pilgramige at somepoint.   I see almost total lack of interest here in the largest aviation event in the world.  




Got to say I really like aviation stories, TV shows, etc., but I have no idea what you are talking about?  Fill me in, if it's not on the other side of the planet I'll try to get to it.

The closest thing to any "Meca" I've been to is an air museum in Polk City Florida...  Was cool though, IIRC they had a B-24 on display, a B-17 that you could walk inside and "man the guns", and a pretty cool flight simulator where you actually sat in a sim pit and went against oh maybe 20 people...

Oh, and back on topic (sorry) Airbumba, great post! Too many people are getting angry lately...  Well I've only been here a short while but it still seems like people are getting more frustrated and angry lately (at least in Knightland).

Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline MOIL

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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2004, 01:04:16 AM »
Awesome  Bumba   bro

I said the same thing many times a few posts back.

Myself, I fit into the "Sim" catagory, I always have prob always will.
I love WWII history, one of the main reasons I really like AH, just not so much with the planes.

This is one of the reasons I was always puzzled by the community, they say hey "it's a flight sim"  and to me most of the time people play the game as a "game" not a "sim"  Hence, the reason I always kinda poked at HTC asking them to make it a Sim or a Game, difficult to do both.
I still believe "Sims" attrack a different crowd than "game" players and I bet if ya took a poll "Sim" would prob win!

Great post tho

Offline MOIL

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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2004, 01:18:51 AM »
Gonzo states:
"So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills." Wow ... the only way to get that glory now is as a squad. While this will result in a lot of dweeb squads, at least now players are getting into a more structured environment.

Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10. Now players will start to compete as squadrons. Clans ... thats something gamers can get into, right? And if you limit the stats that get announced to those which can't be easily optimized with pork-based tactics, they will need to work for it"



This is all great stuff, I posted something like this not too long ago. Except I took it one step further, there is no "death message" there is no "your squad is ranked" such & such. I say make those all go away, no points, perks, bonus', none of that stuff. Because just as it is now, the first thing it seems people do is to look at who is ranked what, with how many kills and in what plane. If the game is based on numbers, it wil be played FOR numbers. In WWII a HUD didn't pop up and tell you, you shot down an enemy A/C! ?   Now they did kinda keep score of the "kills" they got, but that was about it. Not that this has anything to do with AH, nor do I compare the two but in WWII Online {yeah I know it's not perfect either, so save it} If you kill an enemy, you do just that kill an enemy. No death messages, no "you killed he11Dog555" nope, nothing at all. You either surrvied your mission, survied your mission w/two killed rifleman, or you DIED!

My 2cents

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2004, 02:11:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoKGonZo

So, just for the sake of argument, lets see what we can fix by messing with one little thing- the kills landed messages. Change them to: "A member of the XXX squadron just landed Y kills."

Now, suppose that squad kill message then did a quick rifle through the stats and if the squad is in the top 10 in any category that's measured, the message has appended to it: "The squad now ranks 5th in kill/death ratio" ... or whatever stat they're best at in the top 10.

Same deal when a base is captured - say which squadron got the troops in.

Then do one more thing on the kills landed message ... announce assists as well.


Hehe .... geez, DoK ... wouldn't it just be easier to just ditch all glorydog messages?

But .... on the gamer/simmer black and white classification thang:

While I like Bumba's post I don't entirely agree with it's premise (at least in regards to the communities I've belonged to online so far). Although I certainly see those two personalities exhibited in the community I see them as extremes (granted .... I also see each end having more than a minimal percentage of the population). I've also noticed players that I suppose, for lack of a better term, could be classified as gamer/simmer hybrids. I belong to that particular demographic.

These would be the players who've enjoyed sims, strategy games and role-play type games over time and wouldn't mind seeing elements of each combined. Sure, some find one aspect more appealing than the other but they appreciate the differences and what place they do or don't have in whatever enviroment they're currently playing in.

Aces High actually has more depth to it than most games online and can be customized to suit different demographics of the community. By and large, the player base plays in the main arena which is set up to be as generic as possible. There are three sides that participate in a three way free-for all RISK style territory capture and nobody belongs to a side that depicts itself as a virtual representation of any of the nations that actually participated in World War II. The terrains are custom created to be as equal as possible when the arena is reset and aren't representations of any actual geographic region. All aircraft modeled for Aces High are available within the limits of whatever has been coded in the system to try to assure some degree of balance.

That, right there, is an important clue that Aces High is a game.

Players can earn points for air to air kills (with modifiers applied depending on whether they make it back to land, are forced to ditch in friendly or enemy territory, bail over friendly or enemy territory or are killed). They can earn points for conducting air to ground attacks and bomb runs, ground to ground fights between vehicles, base captures and defending bases abd ships via ground and ship guns. This is true for all servers, plane match-ups, settings and enviroments. It's player feedback. A measure of success.

Methods vary. Players can operate as lone wolfs or in wolf packs. They can dive into the middle of furballs and go berzerk. They can load up with fuel, grab alt and look for prey to snipe. They can make head on attacks. They can vulch aircraft taking off. They can drive a tank or ostie or other vehicle to a spawnpoint, anticipating players from other sides spawning there and pick them off. They can take command of fleets and take them out to sea or use them to assault bases on the coast. They can look for easy routes to get their bombers to a target and back with the minimum of opposition (none being preferred by many). They can take heavy bombers and make suicide attacks on bases for the sake of either disabling something that makes it harder for the other side to use that base effectively or to assist in the capture of bases/territory. ALL within the design and parameters of Aces High. Yes ... all of this is by design. Players prefer some methods over others. Players hold some methods in disdain. And which specific ones are considered acceptable or not in their eyes vary from player to player.

Group strategies are actually less varied in the MA. Who do we attack? Where do we attack? What do we attack with? Are we a cohesive group or are we a chaotic mass? Do we have numbers? Should we devote ourselves to defending a base or front?

And since the goal of the main arena is to "win" a reset, each side, by default, plays "RISK." Players often mistake the MA goal of reset to be the goal of all server enviroments in the game but, in actuality, it's specific to that one arena.

So still .... we have a game more than a sim.

BUT ...

HTC has devoted itself to making Ace's High the premier online mmoSIM by spending a great deal of effort on the flightmodel as well as the comsetics of over 70 aircraft, vehicles, ships and boats (well boat). The gunnery, damage model and even details such as blackouts, pilot wounds, oil on the windscreen were all developed to give the players a sense of immersion. And it was coded is such a way to keep the community from suffering bloated downloads. The coding is lean and mean.

Once players venture out of the main arena into the Combat Arena or into an event they find that they can further immerse themselves into a setting that involves historically accurate plane match-ups and terrains (or at least will, again, as the terrains and more models fill in the gaps currently in the system).

Events are more structured, having rules and guidelines designed to reduce the chance of "rogue" players ruining the immersion for the whole group. The Combat Theater, though less structured, offers a taste of history by having historical match-ups and realistic terrains on a weekly rotation 24 hours a day.

This makes Ace's High not only a simulation but a place to "re-enact"* famous air (and possibly land and sea) battles from WWII.

Ok ... there's two aspects of the game ... a dual personality, if you will.

Role-play can exist in either enviroment. With the CT it requires the flexibility of changing a squadron's personality to reflect what's available there that week. In the MA it requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief or perhaps just completely ignoring the fact that P-51s in U.S. markings are fighting opposing P-51s in U.S. markings for a piece of territory referred to a "Pizza" (not to be confused with Pizza , Italy).

So ... does each player have to be one or the other? Not really. Even if their personality is a cocktail of all of the above, each one can be (and probably is) uniquely different.

If you stop and think about it, this may actually be one of the greatest strengths of Ace's High that will keep it a viable community and product for years to come.

(Geez ... if I spent this much effort every night working on writing short stories or novel chapters I'd probably be published by now)

I'm tired ... I'm sure whoever took the time to read this is too. But I think I'll go to bed.

:p
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 02:18:11 AM by Arlo »

Offline hogenbor

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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2004, 02:48:29 AM »
Gamers can mature into simmers, hmmm, THAT's an interesting point. The first computer I ever bought was 100% a gaming machine and I spent a lot of time playing all sorts of games, starting with Wolfenstein 3D and Chuck Yeagers Air combat.

About 12 years later I own a good machine which is now 2 years old but was top spec. back then, so runs AHII just fine. I was a little afraid that I had to upgrade again (as I had to do so many times before to play the latests games) but no. So the urge for the latests and the best has gone, I just want to play 'my game'.

I have been aware of an on-line 'community' sicne Air Warrior and when I was graduating, with the internet as we know it gaining momentum, I got very interested in what was then Warbirds. I read stories about virtual pilots, reviews, downloaded screenshots etc. The idea of sharing a virtual arena with fellow aviation enthousiasts, interested in WWII aircraft was (and still is) very appealling. That got me started in AHII eventually! I think of AHII as a Sim, more than a Game. That having said I don't like MS Flightsim and such, that is just boring to me. But 'playing' the WWII pilot in a Spit of 109 is a dream come true and AHII is just what I wanted.

What has appalled me since day one is the rudeness of a lot of people. Indeed, I post and fly like myself, as I think is appropriate to behave irl. It is incomprehensible to me the way people think they can behave on something as anonymous as the internet. Would they talk and act like that to their wives, children, friends, bosses, colleagues, family? They would get assaulted, divorced, sued or end up very alone the least!

Offline Fruda

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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2004, 03:17:18 AM »
I'm of the "hardcore" type WWII combat simmer.

I want all the detail of Il-2 Sturmovik, with the physics accuracy of AHII (not that I didn't say the physics accuracy of Il-2. This is because there are SERIOUS drag and acceleration problems that make it seem as if you're flying on the moon).

I want my snowy Eastern Front battles between Germany and the Soviet Union. I want engine defects. I want complete accuracy in the sound reproduction system.

Most of all, I'd rather have the CT as the main room, and just throw the MA in the trash. Limited planesets, historic maps, battles, and skins are my thing.

I also want night-time and weather effects. There's much, much more, but I don't wanna take up half a page.

I've noticed that very few people in AH respect my views for a sim like this. I understand them, as they aren't the type who give a damn about anything but scoring points. This is what I'd want if I were to make a WWII flight sim.

I'm a gamer. But, when it comes to sims, I'm a hardcore simmer. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2004, 08:08:03 AM »
Well Im a gamer. I have no real flight experience. However I do ok in here. I think that for the simmer...its the last resort of consolation to his ego..."If it were a better sim, I would have had him!".

   Guys, if AH2, or WW2OL could afford it, Im sure they would select 200 people, that play the way they prefer, and make a private club. Everyone would play "realistically" even if the game allowed otherwise. But since they can't afford it, us peasants, us huddled masses, us dregs of society have to come here and support the game that you want to sim. Unfortunately not everyone wants to play a sim...some of us work hard, and want to play easy. Id suggest forming a club, and creating a game you can sim, and keep the undesirables out.

~AoM~

Offline Edbert

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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2004, 09:37:13 AM »
Nice post Bumba, I agree with your comments regarding civility. I always try to remain civil and cordial. Sometimes I am more successful with those efforts than others.

But IMHO the line between gamers and simmers is not so black and white, nor is it just two opposing sides. There may be as many as a dozen different groups who each want conflicting things in their game. Just for example you have strategic guys who want to capture bases and win the war and you have fighter jocks who just want to duel it out in dogfights. The line is also blurred by other factors such as other interests and playing style. A person's flying style will sometimes change from day to day as mine does. Sometimes I just wanna fly to 5K and furball for 30-45 minutes and hang it up. Other times I'll fly to 12-15K and have a few hour long lone wolf sorties. Maybe that just means I am on the fence, but I don't think that is what it means.

I love computer games, and I love WWII history, particularly the airwar. I bought a computer to play video games, but the games I wanted to play were the simulators of their day. Indy500 and Battlehawks1942 to be specific. They were about as hard-core realistic as you could find at the time and I've always graduated toward the hyper realistic games in any genre. For example I prefer COD to RTCW and the MOH series.

Basically I agree with Fruda when it comes to my taste in games, although I dislike the gunnery in IL2 more then the FM. The more realism that can be coded into my games the more I like them. I wish the MA was replaced by the CT or TOD. But I also recognize that that will probably NEVER happen.

The fact of the matter is that AH is not just a game/sim, it is a business. AH is playing to all markets, and I think that is the correct business decision. HTC has done an amazing job of balancing the 5-7 camps that are all trying to pull the game more towards their side of the fence. How else can a CEO maximize his marketshare?

Offline hitech

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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2004, 10:52:25 AM »
Don't realy agree with your catagory description. I see gammers and simmers being the same thing.

I see it more as a break down between Roll player , ACM, and strat player.

Some people want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.

Other people want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.

Other people want to win the war.


HiTech

Offline Westy

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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2004, 11:04:09 AM »
I'd say some, myself for example,  want all of those.

Listed in order of importance( to me):  

I....

1) ...want to feel like they are in WWII. And act like a pilot.

2) ...want to learn all about ACM and the best way to fight aircraft.

3) ...want to win the war (fight).      



*snipped my additional redundant remarks as Hitech is right. I guess as cat 1 type that cat 2 and 3 wants naturally follow.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 11:17:05 AM by Westy »