GV's WAY too strong.

[Fruda]

Just as the topic said, the GV's in AHII have become far too strong. Just 10 minutes ago, I was flying my P-47D25 to get some Panzers near a field.

So, I found one, began to dive, and unloaded all three bombs on it. BAM --- nothing happened to the Panzer. In real life, the Panzer would've been badly damaged at that distance (about 200 feet from the blasts).

Then, I circle, come back, and unload 200 rounds of 50cal shots directly into the front of it. NOTHING HAPPENED. I don't think they even penetrated the armor (yes, about 64% of the shots hit, as there were many flashes on the Panzer). In real life, P-47's were used to strafe Panzers very low to the ground, and about that many shots would destroy one.

And about 15 minutes before that, I was flying my P-38 by an enemy field. I spotted an M-16MGMC, so I went for it with all my guns. About 20 20mm shots hit it, and around 150 50cals did as well. I only barely damaged it, and my P-38's wings were ripped off by the M-16's 50cal turret.

This isn't how it should be. You shouldn't have to call on the entire USAAF to destroy a group of 3 Panzers, but you do in AHII. Hell, even rockets bounce off.

This is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

[Kweassa]

You'd be surprised how ineffective aircraft were against tanks in "real life".

[Blammo]

Maybe so Kweassa, but what he is saying is correct.  I hardly think an M-16 could stand up to a good straffing from .50 cals, let alone 20 mm cannon.  Yet, I have seen the same thing in my experience.  Or take for example diving straight down on an Osti...if you haven't noticed, they are open on top.  Any shots going through the top are hitting crew and sensitive equipment, yet they almost never seem to loose their turret from such an attack.

In AH1 I could get mobility kills and real kill with pretty good regularity.  A hundred 20 mm or so in the rear of a Panzer meant the engine was bye bye (as it should)  However, not I make the same pass @ 300 + MPH, do nothing to the Panzer and get a pilot wound (or some other incredible damage) from the pintle gun.

No, GVs are to resistant to damage from AC, IMO.

[Fruda]

From the military footage I've seen, a P-47 was hell for Panzers. In AHII? A Panzer is hell for a P-47.

[Kweassa]

Military footages are for PR purposes. They are outright exaggerated, and inaccurate.

 There is a reason why most of the major air powers of WW2 struggled to develop airbourne anti-tank platforms.You will realize these are all planes armed with one or two specialized anti-tank cannons ranging from 37mm to even 75mms in some case.

 In the first place, lobbing bombs onto such a small, mobile target was itself was an extremely difficult task. Not to mention that the accuracy of the rockets were like 5 rockets on target for every 200 fired.

 50cals? Don't even start on that.

 Since lobbed ordnance was extremely unlikely to directly hit a target, and standard HMGs or cannons were vastly ineffective, the air powers equipped their planes with powerful AP cannons that can readily penetrate tank armour.

 The Hurricane Mk.IId with the VickerS 40mms, the Ju87G with 37mms, the IL-2 with 23mm AP cannons etc etc.. these are all slow and vulnerable planes, and yet, they were the best planes at destroying tanks.

 With a dive angle of more than 30 degrees I can explode a Panzer with a Hurricane or a IL-2 by penetrating the top armour. With a lesser angle I can render them useless by knocking out turrets and/or the engine, tracks, etc. A single 100lbs bomb, if it lands on the Panzer, will destroy it.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Kweassa
...

 The Hurricane Mk.IId with the VickerS 40mms, the Ju87G with 37mms, the IL-2 with 23mm AP cannons etc etc.. these are all slow and vulnerable planes, and yet, they were the best planes at destroying tanks.

 With a dive angle of more than 30 degrees I can explode a Panzer with a Hurricane or a IL-2 by penetrating the top armour. With a lesser angle I can render them useless by knocking out turrets and/or the engine, tracks, etc. A single 100lbs bomb, if it lands on the Panzer, will destroy it.

I haven't seen these kinds of results. Lord knows, I've tried. I can't even count how many times a couple of us in IL2's have emptied guns into the rear of a Panzer, from a dive, and at best got him smoking. It usually requires a hit from a friendly panzer to finish it off.

Sturmi, Hurri IID, Yak-9T all need an ammo load-out of armor piercing instead of HE.

    -DoK

[Kev367th]

Just think the GV damage model is still hosed.
Still get AP rounds bouncing off M3's at Tiger seems the most inexplicable, if it doesn't die with 1st lot of ord dropped on it, nothing short of a nuke will take it down. Yet I have seen M3's, M16's and Ostys kill a Tiger.

[Urchin]

Hurri-2D and IL-2 work fine against GVs.. you can knock out a Tigers turret with one strafing pass if you come in at the right angle.  

The Yak-9T shouldn't work well against GVs, it was not used as a "tank-buster" in real life, so the 37mm is loaded with HE, not AP.

[Zanth]

9-01-04 to present  ( planes augering into trees near tnaks likely)

The Il-2 has 881 kills and has been killed 190 times against the Panzer IV H

The Il-2 has 11 kills and has been killed 27 times against the Tiger I.

The Il-2 has 285 kills and has been killed 268 times against the Ostwind.



The Hurricane IID has 25 kills and has been killed 54 times against the Panzer IV H.

The Hurricane IID has 0 kills and has been killed 7 times against the Tiger I.

The Hurricane IID has 5 kills and has been killed 34 times against the Ostwind.



The Ju 87D-3 has 19 kills and has been killed 14 times against the Panzer IV H.

The Ju 87D-3 has 4 kills and has been killed 4 times against the Tiger I.

The Ju 87D-3 has 11 kills and has been killed 26 times against the Ostwind.



The P-38L has 234 kills and has been killed 289 times against the Panzer IV H.

The P-38L has 13 kills and has been killed 38 times against the Tiger I.

The P-38L has 193 kills and has been killed 676 times against the Ostwind.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Zanth
9-01-04 to present  ( planes augering into trees near tnaks likely)

...

Well these numbers are misleading. Probably half of my tank kills only came when a Panzer came along and applied the kill shot. Usually I was already RTB out of ammo. It just happened that I had done enough damage that the host game me the kill, even though the panzer was completely combat-ready until a friendly Panzer came on the scene.

The Sturmi's better ratio is probably a reflection of the higher ammo load. It can put hits into a lot of vehicles and then gather the kill when someone else puts in the kill shot.

Sure would be nice is we had a panzer target offline to try this with. With the vagaries of the host ("rubber tank rounds") its pretty hard to know what "should work." I have yet to see anyone KO a panzer in "one pass" with anything short of mutliple 1000 pounders.

    -DoK

[Fruda]

I know that the Yak-9T isn't for GV-busting purposes (that's why I use P-47's and Il-2's).

Even when I use the GV-busting Hurricane 2D, I rarely destroy Panzers. I *sometimes* get them smoking.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Fruda
Then, I circle, come back, and unload 200 rounds of 50cal shots directly into the front of it. NOTHING HAPPENED. I don't think they even penetrated the armor (yes, about 64% of the shots hit, as there were many flashes on the Panzer). In real life, P-47's were used to strafe Panzers very low to the ground, and about that many shots would destroy one.

How will a .50 bullet penetrate more than it can ?

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Fruda
I know that the Yak-9T isn't for GV-busting purposes (that's why I use P-47's and Il-2's).

Even when I use the GV-busting Hurricane 2D, I rarely destroy Panzers. I *sometimes* get them smoking.

Yeah ... I'd forgotten the 9T isn't rigged for tank-busting.

But .50 cal's should shred an M16 as well as the turret of an Osti (not to mention its occupants since it's open-topped).

20mm cannon probably shouldn't kill a PzIV, but it should stand a good chance of breaking a track on head-on and tail-on shots and at least immobilizing the vehicle. Likewise for a rocket hit on the tracks. And if you immobilize a GV far enough from base, that's as good as a kill - right now this seems to be completely missing.

Pz IV's (as I recall ... it's been a while) weren't that well armored from above or behind. It was, afterall, a design that went into service almost from the start of the war. A 40mm hit on the rear quarter or from above from close-in should smoke the engine compartment with some degree of certainty (i.e. not every time, but within 2 or 3 decent passes). At which point its a matter of time before the fire spreads and the vehicle explodes - in most cases, the crew would bail out - in AH2, obviously they won't. A hit on the top of the turret should go through and render a kill.

Even near misses from heavy bombs (500 lbs and above) should affect the crew inside, even if the vehicle itself survived. Maybe a close enough hit from a big bomb results in a "pilot wound."


So, can we maybe have the compromise I've kind of outlined above?

- .50 cal and above can KO M16's and Ostie turrets reliably.
- Cannon below 40mm and rockets have a decent chance to knock out GV tracks and immobilize the vehicle.
- 40mm cannon hits on the rear or rear deck of a GV has a decent chance of killing the engine and starting a fire.
- 40mm cannon hits on a tank's turret top has a decent chance of getting an immediate kill.
- Near misses by heavy ord (500# and up) have a decent chance of causing a "pilot wound" to a GV.

This way you won't have a bunch of Rudel reincarnates, but GV's won't be able to operate with impunity either. If they can sneak into a base and camp, well so be it. But at least they have to take some real risk in doing so. And a coordinated GV and air attack will still be plenty effective. GV-only defense of a base will be a losing proposition if the attackers have Hurri IID's.

    -DoK

[Kweassa]

In real life, P-47's were used to strafe Panzers very low to the ground, and about that many shots would destroy one.

 How? By bouncing .50s to hit under the tank?

 

 Here's a famous read:

Tankbusters

[soda72]

I've notice this too with the pnzr, but I think it's much more realistic this way.   I almost felt guilty how easy it was to kill them before, just strafing them.  However as mentioned before the flak is way to difficult to kill, same with the m16.  I've stop keeping count of the number of times I've dived in on a flack with an ill-2, hit the turret and only see him smk and still be able to use his turret to fire back.  I've also seen 1000lb bombs drop near by a pnzr and not have any effect.  I thought the concussion alone from these bombs landing close by could flip a vehicle over.  (flipping vehicles over using concussion from bombs would be a cool feature for the game)...  oh... and don't get me started on vehicles that use bomb/bullet proof trees....