P-38 film

[clouds]

Uhm......reading what pillik wrote it seems the only thing an opponent in a spit can do vs a p38 is.......following the things pellik wrote but.......in that plane there could be someone whom doesn't have any intention to follows pellik's rules and so bye bye p38 pilot

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by clouds
Uhm......reading what pillik wrote it seems the only thing an opponent in a spit can do vs a p38 is.......following the things pellik wrote but.......in that plane there could be someone whom doesn't have any intention to follows pellik's rules and so bye bye p38 pilot

That someone is Leviathn.

[Flyboy]

in a same E state. spit9 vrs p38 the spit9 will win

its just a batter plane

[pellik]

Originally posted by Flyboy
in a same E state. spit9 vrs p38 the spit9 will win

its just a batter plane

Maybe the spit9 had a slight (slight) advantage back in AH1, but the 38 has gotten a big boost in AH2. From a co-E state the 38 can still take the spit9 in a stall fight. It can pop flaps and win a flat turn fight by getting a smaller turn radius. Or it can speed up and have a performance edge while the fight is moving ~350 mph. The situations in which the spit9 is the better fighter are pretty limited and easy to avoid.

-pellik.

[pellik]

Originally posted by clouds
Uhm......reading what pillik wrote it seems the only thing an opponent in a spit can do vs a p38 is.......following the things pellik wrote but.......in that plane there could be someone whom doesn't have any intention to follows pellik's rules and so bye bye p38 pilot

My stated intent was to give one specific example of how to deal with a high spit in a 38. It was not the definitive way to win a fight. Tell me what you'd do differently if you were the spitfire, and I'll tell you what I'd do.

-pellik

[humble]

The only edge I see the 38 having is the ability to bleed E faster. The spit will out climb out turn and out accelerate it (not by much in any one). Truthfully its a matter of pilot skill. But if the spit wins the merge the 38 is probably toast.

[pellik]

Originally posted by MOSQ
That someone is Leviathn.

What makes a great pilot like Todd so dangerous is a combination of many hard to learn skills. A good pilot who knows how to hold back to avoid the easy overshoot can still be forced out in front by a 38 more often then not thanks to the tremendous stall fighting potential the 38 has. The danger you face fighting the aces like Levi is that their gunnery is so unforgiving. Many of my close in reversals do force me to give up low probability shots. Only a handful of pilots hit me while doing them, and even fewer hit well enough to cause damage. Ever see a P38 go 15 degrees nose up with a spitV 50 feet behind him and do a flat (although nose high) scissors? If the spit is very careful with his E state (or very low on fuel) he can maybe follow long enough for one snap shot. The spits inability to fly as slow as the 38 while subsequently being too low to get it's nose up sets up a truely bizarre reversal. I wouldn't expect Levi to miss the snapshot, whether he is flying a spitV or anything else with guns.

(The premise of this reversal is to go so freakin slow that he has no real options but to break off. He can't maintain level flight at these speeds, if he backs off to try to regain enough E to get his nose up he will overshoot under me. If he trys for the shot he will stall. If he breaks off I will cut in right behind him. This is just how stall fights work. If things start to go wrong you can do a throttle cut in this situation and put it into a stall where, while level, the plane simply floats straight down. It's hard not to overshoot someone who has cut all horizontal movement out of their flight and is only going down at maybe 4k ft/sec. This is a last ditch stall, though.)

-pellik

[pellik]

Originally posted by humble
The only edge I see the 38 having is the ability to bleed E faster. The spit will out climb out turn and out accelerate it (not by much in any one). Truthfully its a matter of pilot skill. But if the spit wins the merge the 38 is probably toast.

The 38 gets to deploy flaps. The spitV may be able to out-climb the 38, but climb rate only really matters when both planes are only so nose high as to be going up at their respective climb rates. When the fight is moving towards a stall the spit can be in a pretty tough spot trying to hold off all that torque without enough air moving over his flight surfaces. Or by "the spit wins the merge" you mean lets start a fight with a co-E spitV 200 feet behind my 38? Typically I try not to lose the merge like this.

-pellik

[clouds]

I don't know pellik......maybe I've not met a very thoug pilot (surely I met only good ones sometimes) but....I don't think that  down a 38 has been, is, or will be the problem more in my life at least untill now.

Surely it make me flow some adrenaline more but......zekes are thoug for me in low speed fighting and especially at low alt.

One of the best countermeasures Vs the 38 is.......to stay in its belly side or maneuver so that its pilot must roll to watch at you.

So few times I've tried the 38 I had this kind of problems,.......keeping the opponet in sight.

Strangely I felt very good also in a Lala Vs a P38 that is another kind of plane at all.

[humble]

Obviously I'm discussing a merge not having a plane 200 on your 6...I was thinking spit IX not spit V. A 38 has a big edge E fighting a spit V but little chance of beating it in a well flown angles fight (again pilot skill is the primary factor) vs a spit IX the spit has a lot more potential E but loses it's edge in a true turning fight significantly. If the 38 has an edge in total energy it will win a vertical fight pretty easily with a spitty (either type)...but if the spit is co-e or better it should control the fight (spit IX).

[humble]

Pellik,

You make an awful lot assumptions. If you've reached a point that your at full flaps stall in a 38 you've removed a lot of options. The same way your not going to just "let" someone get 200 out on your 6 most decent pilots wont just let you suck them into a horizontal endgame at less than 100 nkts...

If the spit pilot's got any brains he's fighting you in the vertical obliques not chasing your flat scissors. Now we all know that pilot ability supercedes both aircraft performance and common sense...great sticks seem to be able to make good sticks to stupid things almost at will...no clue why...but it simply works that way. Dont confuse out flying someone with the planes normal performance envelope...

[pellik]

Originally posted by humble
Obviously I'm discussing a merge not having a plane 200 on your 6...I was thinking spit IX not spit V. A 38 has a big edge E fighting a spit V but little chance of beating it in a well flown angles fight (again pilot skill is the primary factor) vs a spit IX the spit has a lot more potential E but loses it's edge in a true turning fight significantly. If the 38 has an edge in total energy it will win a vertical fight pretty easily with a spitty (either type)...but if the spit is co-e or better it should control the fight (spit IX).

I've always found the turn radius of the spit IX to be horrendous. If the 38 keeps the fight at least partially in the verticle the spit IX seems to be disadvantaged to me because of this. My general strategy for out turning a spit IX is to get flaps out and keep the fight either going nose up or nose down. When the spitIX gets a little above the 38 I try to get my nose up a little above the spit and use roll rate to augment my turn (not unlike a turnfight adapted immel, except only 30-40 degrees nose up instead of 90 degrees). If the spit gets below the 38 I find the nose down flaps out turn on the 38 to be vastly superior to the nose down turn of the spit IX. I find the really well flown spit IX's tend to adopt a pure E fighting tactic against 38s not unlike the tactics used by 109G10 pilots. These "cowardly" tactics do allow the spitIX to maintain an advantage over the 38, but if the 38 is also well flown these attacks usually won't accomplish anything except to delay things until more planes show up, as the loose high E flying style necessary to avoid the true turn fight is very prone to overshoot.

-pellik

[humble]

I agree with you completely...the spitty has a tough time managing E state....it'll "overspeed" very easily in a nose down turn...the p-38 will eat it up if the spitty moves away from an energy fight. The 38 however does offer a large target so I usually dont have a problem hitting them...I'm not a spit driver however so I'm not a great example here. Truthfully I dont have much problem 1 on 1 with either spits or 38's in my -1. I'll get hosed by the uber pilot not the plane usually.

Added at edit...

The above comment might be a bit confusing since it's a bit "two faced"...

The 38 isnt really out turning the spitty it's simply managing it's speed better. Again its a pilot thingy here...if the spitty driver knows to scrub his speed so he is actually neg E here he can (and will) turn inside the 38...but most spitty drivers get forced "outside" due to high speed and fall to a well timed reversal...basically your using the spittys e retention against it and then forcing the overshoot...the better flown spitty will minimize overshoot and maintain a shot window or simply take thehigh ground vs a well flown 38.

[clouds]

In a Falcon 4 site, the site programmer have implemented a white board, usefull to draw exaples pertaining what they are writing for.

I've found it a real nice stuff and it could be usefull also here.

[humble]

The only problem with a diagram is it shows the manuver not the motive behind it. For example if you have a spitty in "lag" thats completely different than a spit vainly attempting to pull lead on pellicks 38 from a higher E state...now if he reverses on the 2nd spit proximity and E state converge to creat an almost undeniable overshoot...the 38 also has enough E to close to guns thru out a vast majority of the spits possible counters. Now the same pilot flying lag will have total control of the 38...yet on the diagram they could be at the same relative position at one particular point in time. One of the biggest issues with an uber stick is understanding his intent, often he's looking for a very fleeting option but can deliver thru superior "touch" and gunnery....or he shows you something that doesnt really exist then takes it away the moment you go for the "bait". Intent and timing is more important then the "move" itself in air combat.