Author Topic: P-38 film  (Read 2782 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38 film
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2004, 12:30:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
in a same E state. spit9 vrs p38 the spit9 will win

its just a batter plane



Depends on the tactics used.  A smart P-38 would use the vertical to get the Spitfire slow then turn with it.



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Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38 film
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2004, 12:40:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
Pellik,

You make an awful lot assumptions. If you've reached a point that your at full flaps stall in a 38 you've removed a lot of options.




No you haven't.  Too bad the films don't show all the instruments working or in a lot of my films you'll see me in turn fights with Spitfires moving my flaps from full to 3/4 back to full then to 3/4, etc.  The only danger with having full flaps engaged is if you kill the enemy plane and find yourself on the deck.  Then being at full flaps really sucks.


ack-ack
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Offline clouds

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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2004, 06:38:20 AM »
The real big problem in a flap stal fighting is the relative low speed and distance between the opponents, that make every little mistake done probably the last one a pilot did.

Anyway this kind of maneuvers needs a good plane handling and then training to predict any bad move the plane could have.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 06:41:35 AM by clouds »

Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2004, 07:16:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Depends on the tactics used.  A smart P-38 would use the vertical to get the Spitfire slow then turn with it.



ack-ack


the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.

when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how

Offline simshell

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P-38 film
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2004, 10:07:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.

when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how


maybe you forgot that the P38L is the best vertical fighter in the game

and the P38 can handle slow speeds better then the Spit9 with the proper use of flaps
known as Arctic in the main

Offline clouds

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P-38 film
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2004, 10:18:13 AM »
I think the best in the vertical is 109-G10.

It is the fastest (so you can reposition afther the merge) and climbs also the best of all but it is not for turn fights but in the vertical plane.

The more you go high and the more it runs.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 10:20:54 AM by clouds »

Offline humble

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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2004, 11:28:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No you haven't.  Too bad the films don't show all the instruments working or in a lot of my films you'll see me in turn fights with Spitfires moving my flaps from full to 3/4 back to full then to 3/4, etc.  The only danger with having full flaps engaged is if you kill the enemy plane and find yourself on the deck.  Then being at full flaps really sucks.


ack-ack


I'm responding to his comments on "full stall" evasives to force an overshoot....minimium vertical speed for a 38 is about 120...if he's going to full flaps edge of stall hes at 80 or less. Obviously if your in a stallfight your biggest strength is getting the fight slow (although I dont think you csn out turn a spit in a 38)...The spitty cant slow down as fast as the 38 and the 38 can maximize its turn capability with flaps thruout the 80-180 speed range better than the spitty can...normally what happens is the spitty is going 175 and the 38 walks the flaps from 185 down thru 150 while the spitty is still at 165-170...now the spitty is toast...he's giving a plane form shot if he continues his turn...he cant scrub enough to reverse without giving a plane form shot and if he goes vertical he giving the 38 a tracking shot. The spitty is being out turned because its to fast most of the time...not because a 38 will outturn it...

As for fighting in the vertical...38 is one of the best but 109 and spit are both in the same league (IMO)...again pilot skill is the biggest factor...not the plane.

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Offline clouds

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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2004, 11:48:12 AM »
Rgr I completely agree with you but I would like to see all this theories made on the paper flying in a real AH arena ;) :aok
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 11:56:22 AM by clouds »

Offline MOSQ

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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2004, 12:09:07 PM »
The IRL "Rules" for flying a P-38:

Combat Tactics in the SouthWest Pacific Area by Maj. Tom McGuire

Ironically he died in his quest to be #1 because he broke his own Rules:

Never engage in combat at less than 250 mph, preferrably never less than 300mph.

Never engage in combat with drop tanks on.

This quote is remarkable in comparison to this thread:

"The only Japanese fighter which can be outmaneuvered by a P-38 is the twin engine Nick. When pursuing or pursued you must keep to the shallow dive, climb, or turn because there is not a trick maneuver in the book that can't be done better in a Japanese plane than in a P-38. In making passes, hold your lead in deflection as long as you can, but just as soon as you lose that lead, roll out of the turn and keep going straight. Never pull up beyond 30 degrees when pursuing, because your loss of speed will permit the Japanese pilot to loop over onto your tail. Break combat when it is to your advantage to do so, don't wait until you set yourself up in such a position that the Japanese pilot will have the advantage. Make him fight on your terms, don't fight on his."

"Speed is important! Since you cannot out-maneuver the Japanese fighters it should be obvious that to have any success in combat against them, speed is essential. If at all possible, keep your speed in combat at three hundred miles plus. Never slow down below 250 miles per hour once in a flight. There have been pilots who slowed down in combat, but they are no longer capable of telling you how dangerous it is to do so."

The Nick he mentions is not the NIKI-J in AHII, it was the twin engine Kawasaki KI45 Toryu.

Back to AHII:
In the above arguments about the Spit V vs the P-38:
Put Levi in his Spit V against ANY P-38 flyer in AHII in anything close to a co-E situation, my money is on Levi.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2004, 12:24:19 PM by MOSQ »

Offline pellik

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« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2004, 01:54:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by clouds
I think the best in the vertical is 109-G10.

It is the fastest (so you can reposition afther the merge) and climbs also the best of all but it is not for turn fights but in the vertical plane.

The more you go high and the more it runs.


What makes a fighter good in the verticle is it's stall characteristics, not it's engine performance. The P38s engines rotate in opposite directions, which means that the torque from either one is completely cancelled by the other. When planes get below stall speed in the verticle they can't maintain enough air flow over their flight surfaces (rudders and ailerons) to counter the torque created by their engine. A 109-G10 will stall while still ~100mph. If you cut your throttle a little before the stall in the G10 it has good recovery, but this doesn't begin to compete with a plane that can simply point up until -below- zero mph. The plane that stalls first usually takes the defensive, as the later stalling plane is now above and behind him.

-pellik

Offline pellik

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« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2004, 02:09:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.

when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how


The spit9s verticle characteristics as well as it's handling at stall and sub-stall speeds are, while decent against most planes, both pretty weak compared to the 38. When a turnfight reaches sub-stall speeds both the spit9 and spitV have to chose between being able to maintain level flight or going nose down to be able to turn (The act of banking the plane to turn at these speeds will drop your nose. And until you regain some E you won't be able to get it back up). The 38 can actually turn pretty quick while hitting that stall mark, and thanks to it's torque characteristics it can remain nose high while doing so. When the fight reaches that stall climax the spit always has to back off for E which gives the 38 a chance to use it's crazy stall abilitys to simply spin in for a kill shot. The basic strategy with the reversal I detailed earlier is that when the spit backs down a little to regain enough E to "out turn" turn with the 38, the 38 pilot being at stall speed just needs to kick rudder and do what is basically a hammerhead maneuver into a low yo-yo to gain angles. Sometimes the 38 pilot needs to start getting crazy and playing with manifold pressure on one particular engine to make this stall happen fast enough.

This is just one example of how stall characteristics win fights. Being a verticle fighter requires more then an ability to zoom and decent stall recovery, it requires the ability to use even the smallest stall to get an angle. The spit9s verticle ability is set up around being a BnZ fighter more then being a stall fighter.

-pellik

Offline pellik

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« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2004, 02:19:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
I'm responding to his comments on "full stall" evasives to force an overshoot....minimium vertical speed for a 38 is about 120...if he's going to full flaps edge of stall hes at 80 or less. Obviously if your in a stallfight your biggest strength is getting the fight slow (although I dont think you csn out turn a spit in a 38)...The spitty cant slow down as fast as the 38 and the 38 can maximize its turn capability with flaps thruout the 80-180 speed range better than the spitty can...normally what happens is the spitty is going 175 and the 38 walks the flaps from 185 down thru 150 while the spitty is still at 165-170...now the spitty is toast...he's giving a plane form shot if he continues his turn...he cant scrub enough to reverse without giving a plane form shot and if he goes vertical he giving the 38 a tracking shot. The spitty is being out turned because its to fast most of the time...not because a 38 will outturn it...

As for fighting in the vertical...38 is one of the best but 109 and spit are both in the same league (IMO)...again pilot skill is the biggest factor...not the plane.


What I'm trying to stress is that the spit is in E state trouble the whole time. If he scrubs E to get away from the 38s inside reversal the 38 pilot can just reverse into a high yo-yo. If the spit pilot continues to scrub E the stall speeds help the 38 as it performs better during the stall. Even the most talented spit pilots tend to look for HO shots throughout these maneuvers. As the fight progresses the spit has to chose between getting too fast to turn inside the 38 with or without a throttle cut, creating a game of dangerous overshoots, or to get so slow as to completely commit to the fight, in which case the 38 can just go nose up and force the spit to back off from something he can't follow. If the spit gets so slow as to manage to cut in behind my 38 he is usually too slow to manage himself in the insuing verticle scissors, giving up at least one close range canopy shot. Good gunnery on the part of the 38 pilot (missing these snap shots is what usually costs me the fight) combined with the ability to always get at least one shot on the spit, can make the 38 the better ride in a turn fight.

-pellik

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2004, 05:30:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by clouds
I think the best in the vertical is 109-G10.

It is the fastest (so you can reposition afther the merge) and climbs also the best of all but it is not for turn fights but in the vertical plane.

The more you go high and the more it runs.



You're confusing climb rate with vertical performance.  


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2004, 05:31:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
the spit9 is a monster in the vertical. hendles perfectly on the stall speed.

when i fly the spit9 i use it allmost exclusivly in the vertical.
it just doesnt seem like that because 90% or so od the players who use it dont know how



P-38 easily out performs the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical.



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2004, 05:34:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
I'm responding to his comments on "full stall" evasives to force an overshoot....minimium vertical speed for a 38 is about 120...if he's going to full flaps edge of stall hes at 80 or less.




That's the great thing about the P-38.  You can loop it with as little as 100mphIAS.  You'll stall out as you go over the top but the stall with bring the nose down to complete the loop.  The stall loop is a wonderful thing.



ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song