Author Topic: Bolt Action question (Read 466 times)

Charon · « **on:** September 14, 2004, 02:13:12 PM »

I went on a computer shopping spree and put off my order of the Bulgarian Markov Lazs was talking about a few months ago. I'm ready to spend the cash and go through the whole FFL shipping deal now, but something else caught my eye.

I'm tempted to buy a Mk. 1 Enfield instead. I already have several pistols, and while the Markov would be nice (who knows, I may get one as well), I would like to get an historic bolt action military rifle.

The question though, is what can I expect from a shooting quality standpoint? I feel the markov would be pretty low use and tight, but what about a WW2 era rifle. I don't want some shot-out piece of crap. The listing says clean bores, but does anybody have any experience beyond that?

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Rifles.html

Charon

ra · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2004, 02:18:33 PM »

If there are any gun stores in your area they should have plenty of Enfields on hand, so you don't have to wonder what you're buying.

Edbert · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2004, 02:19:41 PM »

I don;t know much about the Lee Enfields but you are correct to be cautious regarding anything that old. Is there a way you can buy 'remanufactured'? There are companies that restore/rebuild classic weapons, they are not only good as new, but actually better than a service class rifle from the '30s-40s.

Try companies like http://www.springfield-armory.com/products.shtml

Blooz · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2004, 02:51:41 PM »

Although they don't have Lee Enfields. I've done business with this company and they are grade A, No. 1 service!

Miltech

Dune · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2004, 02:51:57 PM »

There are many Enfields around. While I would hesitate buying one online, without handling it, I would hesitate to buy one. I own a No4 and love shooting it. They are accurate weapons with what is probably the fastest bolt-action mechanism out there. If you can find a nice, original Enfield, buy it. You'll enjoy it.

VOR · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2004, 03:22:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dune
There are many Enfields around. While I would hesitate buying one online, without handling it, I would hesitate to buy one. I own a No4 and love shooting it. They are accurate weapons with what is probably the fastest bolt-action mechanism out there. If you can find a nice, original Enfield, buy it. You'll enjoy it.

Agree. My No4 is my favorite rifle in terms of shootability and accuracy. (You did mean this one and not the NO1 MK3, right?) If you get one, cough up the extra 10 bucks for the micrometer rear sight. They're neat. One caveat: based upon the info from the url, don't expect a gun in "nice" conditon cosmetically.

lazs2 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2004, 03:22:56 PM »

I have a veryu good condition australian one that was virtually unfired condition when I got it. as stated, it has a very fast bolt and large magazine but... it is the least accurate of all the WWII rifles I have and the ammo is harder to come by cheaply than any other surplus rifle I have.

lazs

cpxxx · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2004, 03:54:20 PM »

The Irish army disposed of the last of it's No 4 rifles in the nineties. A lot went to the States, mostly unfired and unused. I remember seeing some in the armoury exactly as they left the factory sometime in the early eighties. They are stamped with the Irish army symbol. Two intertwined F's. They should be good buys. I'm hoping to get one myself eventually since they liberalised the gun regs here. Nostalgia mostly. I was trained on it as a raw recruit.

All the old ones were taken out and dumped in the Irish sea. Waste.

Charon · « **Reply #8 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:03:32 PM »

Quote

Agree. My No4 is my favorite rifle in terms of shootability and accuracy. (You did mean this one and not the NO1 MK3, right?) If you get one, cough up the extra 10 bucks for the micrometer rear sight. They're neat. One caveat: based upon the info from the url, don't expect a gun in "nice" conditon cosmetically.

I was actually thinking about the Mk.1 because of its history as the main WW1 British Rifle as well as its WW2 history. There is a US manufactured Mk. 4 they are pushing that's $229, and the Mauser at $200. From an historical standpoint the Mauser would be hard to beat, but I like the Enfield better for some reason, and the Mk.1 better than a Mk.4.

I'll have to check out the gunshops first, maybe this weekend. I usually get sticker shock at the prices, but when you add in the cost of shipping and the FFL charge it may not be that much difference.

Lazs I would imagine there would be less .303 than 30.06 or 7.92. What type of difference are we talking about?

BTW, I found this interesting piece about the US/Savage mfg. It also talks about ammo quality and accuracy:

Quote

My biggest criticism of British-made No. 4s is the sloppy manufacture of many wartime barrels, which often have groove diameters over .316". There is little hope of getting any common jacketed bullet to group better than about 4 moa in so large a bore, because the usual .311-.312" jacketed bullets are so greatly undersized.

I have found Canadian Long Branch Arsenal and U.S.-made Savage bores seldom exceed the normal .303"-.304" bore and .313"-.314" groove diameters. The two-groove Long Branch barrels will give normal accuracy with ".30 cal." bullets, but oversized wartime five-groove barrels may just about stay in your hat at 100 yards.http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/SMLE/IIID2a11a4.html

Charon

Horn · « **Reply #9 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:07:50 PM »

My elk/large critter gun is a bolt action 1917 Mauser in 30.06 (orginally 8mm). They are available for around $350 on the net. I really like it--heavy enough to accept the recoil but not too heavy that you'll need a handtruck to carry.

h

VOR · « **Reply #10 on:** September 14, 2004, 04:15:41 PM »

Ahh, right-o. Yeah, I'd like to get a NO 1 to add to the collection but lately archery is taking up most of my hobby money. Lazs does have a good point about the ammo. For a variety of reasons that caliber seems to have a shorter shelf life than most in terms of reliable ignition (I've had a ton of duds and "hangfires" in mine). I'm not sure wether it's a manufacturing issue, the primer mixture, the cordite, the way it's been stored, or what honestly. For this reason I tend to buy the UMC or Sellier & Bellot commercial brands which generally run around 50 cents per shot and pretty closely replicate the military rounds performance. Less shooting, but better shooting IMO.

Charon · « **Reply #11 on:** September 20, 2004, 11:41:22 AM »

Made a round of 3 of the local guns shops and determined that the Internet doesn't look so scary anymore.

Saw two Enfields. Both likely remanufactured to No. 5 condition (didn't have a reference at the time to determine). One is fair to good condition but overpriced at near $300 and one in poor intitial condition overpriced at $125. This one was on consignment and a look down the bore showed it to be not only black, but crusty. I may look at the crusty gun again, see if it is a real No. 5 and maybe offer $70 as a parts gun and see how well it cleans up.

saw a "Universal" carbine at $350 in good condition.

Saw a fair condition Spanish Mauser in 7.62 and several really nice Nagant M-1944 carbines (but overpriced).

One gunshop guy wanted $45 plus tax plus shipping plus some additional $2.00 fee to order me a gun from the Internet -- with no gurantees or added service. I'm sending in my C&R application today. I think I can do just as well myself (at leaset get good to VGC guns) via some of the more reputable distributors.

Charon

VOR · « **Reply #12 on:** September 20, 2004, 12:05:31 PM »

Yeah, I think you made the right choice. Just be careful..it can become habit forming, especially when dealing with C&R low prices and the "neat-o" factor of these historic arms.

Mini D · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2004, 12:21:03 PM »

Other things to consider:

Availablility and cost of rounds (doesn't matter if you're just a collector).
Ability to reload rounds (doesn't matter if you don't reload)

But these are both reasons why Enfields would be a bit down on the list for me.

Charon · « **Reply #14 on:** September 20, 2004, 12:44:30 PM »

Good points Mini. I'm leaning more towards the Nagant M-44 now as a starter, which should have more ammo avail., but the prices are so cheap overall that if I find a good deal it's easy to make the purchase. Most rifles in the 30-06 or 7.62 range (Garand, FN etc.) are still a bit steep. There are some Indian manufacturered No. 4s in 7.62 that are less historical but more practical from an Enfield standpoint.

Headspace issues and other reliability and quality isses are also something I'm trying to get a handle on. Advanced cleaning techniques also. Reloading looks interesting too, but another aspect of the hobby that requires some knowledge.

Charon