Author Topic: Mossie flat spins (Read 587 times)

mora · « **on:** September 17, 2004, 04:33:25 PM »

This is not exactly an AH2 issue as it was around in AH. The Mossie and the ME-110 both have a tendency to get into a unrecoverable flat spin. IMO this is not realistic and no other planes have this tendency. Could this issue be looked at?

flyingaround · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2004, 08:29:02 PM »

chop throttle, hard right rudder, j/s forward right, (at least in 110's) it will drop nose, hit full throttle when nose down, viola you're out of the spin.

dunno 'bout mossie tho'

MOSQ · « **Reply #2 on:** September 21, 2004, 05:30:14 PM »

Mossie can be brought out of 99% spins with 3,000 feet of AGL. I've even recovered in under 1,000 on several occasions.

However a backwards sliding flat spin is the worst. This only happens if you've been pushing the envelope to the extreme. In this case you better have 10,000 feet under you or your not gonna save it. Once you realize your in a backwards slide, you better bail with less than 5,000 feet under you. Above 5,000 you can try to get the nose down, but it takes forever to do so. I've found that cranking the ailerons over hard will help tilt the plane on it's side and then you can start to get the nose down.

I wouldn't classify it as a "bug" though.

mora · « **Reply #3 on:** September 24, 2004, 04:54:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MOSQ
I wouldn't classify it as a "bug" though.

It's perfectly clear that it isn't realistic behaviour.

MOSQ · « **Reply #4 on:** September 24, 2004, 11:41:02 AM »

It is NOT perfectly clear that this is unrealistic behavior. Since when are unrecoverable flat spins not realistic behavior?

In fact spins are generally classified as two types, spins, and unrecoverable flat spins. Or another way to call it, all flat spins are generally considered unrecoverable.

And it's not just the Mossie and 110 that have unrecoverable flat spins. My first flight in a Tempest a couple of years ago resulted in a flat spin from 16,000 feet all the way to the ground.

Again, this is not a bug. You may not agree with the flight model, but that is not a bug issue because it is intentional. If you want the flight model changed this is the wrong forum.

I fly the Mossie probably as much as anyone in the arena and think the flight model is fine. (Other than the night fighter exhaust shrouds!).

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2004, 01:30:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MOSQ
It is NOT perfectly clear that this is unrealistic behavior. Since when are unrecoverable flat spins not realistic behavior?

In fact spins are generally classified as two types, spins, and unrecoverable flat spins. Or another way to call it, all flat spins are generally considered unrecoverable.

That is Correct! generally speaking or classifying

mora · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2004, 04:29:53 AM »

Flat spin in itself is not unrealistic behaviour. In this case I say it's an oversight from the developers, and only two planes have that behaviour. I don't feel they did it intentionally, and that's why I posted it here. Also I don't have the time or resouces to do extensive research in this subject, I'm happy if someone from HTC would try it and make his own conclusions.

Can anyone explain why a twin engined fighter is 5 times more prone to a flat spin than a single engined one(Yes it can be done with certain singles, but that reguires some serious effort)? Do you think that a plane which would enter a flat spin so easily would be certified, even in wartime? If that would be the case, then most of the Mossie and 110 losses would probably have been due to flat spins. I've never seen any reports of that kind. My conclusion is that there is an issue in the Mossies flight model, and the 110 is probably based on that, and that's why it has the same behaviour allthough not as severe.

Schutt · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2004, 05:43:41 AM »

Can get a spit in a flat spin too, no way to recover.

MOSQ · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2004, 11:49:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by mora
Can anyone explain why a twin engined fighter is 5 times more prone to a flat spin than a single engined one(Yes it can be done with certain singles, but that reguires some serious effort)? Do you think that a plane which would enter a flat spin so easily would be certified, even in wartime?

1) Twins have their engines off the centerline of the plane. When they start to spin, there is a huge centrifical force generated by the weight of the engines out on the wings. That is why you must recover quickly, before those forces become overwhelming.

2) Tommy McGuire, America's #2 wartime ace died in a flat spin in his P-38, a two engine fighter. (There is some controversy as to whether it was a flat spin or just a stall.)

3) Last tour I had 44 kills and 31 deaths in the Mossie. Of those 31 deaths only one was a spin too low to recover.

There is nothing wrong with the flight model of the Mossie as far as spins. I suggest you go offline or into the TA and practice spin recovery's, you'll find after an hour you can pop out of almost any spin in just a few seconds.

acetnt367th · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2004, 01:25:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by flyingaround
chop throttle, hard right rudder, j/s forward right, (at least in 110's) it will drop nose, hit full throttle when nose down, viola you're out of the spin.

dunno 'bout mossie tho'

Heard that dropping your gear works too

mora · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2004, 01:38:15 PM »

I know how to recover from spins, that is not my point. Here's a film where you can see a few IMO ridiculous nanosecond flip flops into a no lift situation(I don't think you can call these flat spins), they were achieved by using full up elevator and full left rudder. IRL this would cause a snap roll which might develop into a flat spin, but not this kind of quick flip flop. Anyone can see that this behaviour is not realistic. I might have expressed myself wrongly, but this is a good example of the instability that bothers me.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/anttruok/flipflops.ahf

acetnt367th · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2004, 02:20:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mora
I know how to recover from spins, that is not my point. Here's a film where you can see a few IMO ridiculous nanosecond flip flops into a no lift situation(I don't think you can call these flat spins), they were achieved by using full up elevator and full left rudder. IRL this would cause a snap roll which might develop into a flat spin, but not this kind of quick flip flop. Anyone can see that this behaviour is not realistic. I might have expressed myself wrongly, but this is a good example of the instability that bothers me.

http://www.saunalahti.fi/anttruok/flipflops.ahf

Ack Ack called me a stick stirrer when the exact thing happened to me in a LA 5. I was trying a barrel roll and used full rudder and tried to pull up into roll. The stall alarm went off and the LA spun wildly. This happened twice in the same fight.

You're right in this does seem an example of instability

Acetnt

Krusty · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2004, 03:15:58 PM »

Here's another strange example.... I was in a 10k fight against a p38 in my 109 (F or G2 cant remember) anyways, things get off to a nice start, Until I nose straight up, right? I look around for a second, waiting to stall and tilt over (knowing I'm safe), but... I don't stall.. I literally SLIDE ASS-FIRST DOWNWARD

wtf?? Since when the hell does a 109 do that? I lost 5k alt before I got it into a normal spin, then easily got past that. I nosed down, got speed up to 300-ish, and tried to re-engage the p38.

Only, after that ass-slide and the spin, I was literally unable to freaking fly level. I hit auto pilot to trim it out. I disengaged auto pilot, and tried to pull up, gently, mind you, for which I was rewarded with a nasty instant snap-roll to an inverted position. I corrected, leveled. I tried a climbing turn to the left, to which I was greeted with another Golly-geen spin, for no freaking reason. The only damn thing I could do was nose down and run because of some DAMN instability code that was triggered ONLY when I got stuck in a nearly-impossible tail slide to begin with.

Yeah, there are problems with stability. And they toggle on and off in mid flight, it seems.

Edit: NO I was not damaged. YES we were fighting before the tail slide. YES I was flying beautifully, with nice, graceful climbs and turns, and dives. It wasn't til AFTER the tail slide that I couldn't so much as deviate from a straight line flight.