Gun jam option, perhaps?

[Kweassa]

 Maybe realistic gun-jam options might help
 all this discontent over F4U-1C. From what
 I read, it says here:

 " During the war the US force was never
   able to find a 20mm cannon fully reli
   able enough to their needs. The  20mm
   cannons placed within P-38s were Brit
   ish Hispano cannons.

   One thing was in the Pacific arena wh
   ere most types of American fighters w
   ere used, 20mm cannons never were  in
   dire need. 12.7mm MGs would always do
   the job against Japanese fighters whi
   ch through the war was most always li
   ghtly armored. Colt .50 MGs were actu
   ally more than enough in most cases.

   The US Navy tried 20mm cannons with t
   he Chance/Vought F4U model 1-C fighte
   rs, but it had some problems compared
   to the 15, 20, 30mm cannons the Luftw
   affe used in Europe.

   First of all, the stability of bullet
   path differed greatly over various al
   titudes, causing relatively low chanc
   e of hitting the target. Second,  the
   cannon front would freeze up often wh
   en flying over 15,000 feet. The solut
   ion was to attach seperate piece of g
   enerators aside to the cannons  which
   would preheat the cannon barrel,  and
   these generators too, had their   own
   problems.

   The result: F4U-1Cs scheduled for ope
   rations requiring altitude higher tha
   n 15,000 feet were assigned with "esc
   ort" fighters consisting of F4U-1Ds,w
   hich did not share this same problem."

  Maybe modeling in this historical fact mi
  ght give people some solace - and keep of
  f all those Hogmongers.

  ps) the same sort of gun jam options may
  be useful with other fighers, other situ
  atons too..

 

[eddiek]

Hhhmmmm.........on the surface, it sounds like a good idea.......but we would NEVER hear the end of the whining:  "I can't kill anything 'cause the #@*~#@$% guns jam too much!"  
Somewhere down the road, I really do wish that the "historical" problems associated with the various aircraft would be included in a sim.  For example, if an aircraft's engine was noted to have a high failure rate, and/or the aircraft had a high out-of-commission rate due to mechanical problems, factor that into the game somehow.  Not sure how, maybe look at the overall number of sorties flown, calculate in how many WOULD have been flown but weren't due to mechanical malady, use that out-of-commission percentage to arrive at a formula which would determine a random number of inflight engine failures, collapsed gear on landing, gun jams, etc.
Would be frustrating, for sure, but folks seem to want "realism", and what is more real than having to worry about whether the plane is gonna get ya there, will everything work, will something break on me, etc?
Just food for thought............

[Mayhem]

First the M2 .50 cal that most wwII US aircraft where fitted with is a browning m2 .50cal just as with colt guns being produced by browning (and general motors who made the m16a1 I was first issued). but the m2 50cal is still in use today and it is typically a browning even from day 1 (most of the early heavy MG's where brownings). The USN and USMC wanted the F4u's F6fs equipted with 20mm to help knock a kamakazi down faster. infact they put bigger AA gusn on the ships for just this reason in the later part of the war. the hispano had a problem in ETO at high alt due to extreme cold. the south and central didn't suffer this as bad due to lower flights and warmer climate. this is one reason the 38 started going more to the PTO and less to the ETO. The USAF put 20mm hispano's in the p51H for operation olympic (invasion of mainland japan). for the same perpose as the USN and USMC to stop suicide kamakazi's dead before a dead pilot in a nearly destroyed aircraft could coast into his target inflicing massive casualties and dammage.

The best solution to the f4u1c is for people to stop crying about it. all of the big gun planes have a problem low ammo. if you spray and pray your lucky to get a kill in them. you need to have good acuracy and make your shots count cuase you don't have alot of ammo. 50cals are effective at killing most planes. I wouldn't tank hunt, assualt hangers or go buff busting with them but they are great for clearing AAA with there lazer like preformance and for cutting another fighter to shreds. wait till the p51h ki-84 ki-100 ki-61 spit ix all get here. hell you thing f4u1c's are bad wait till you get hit with a stuka or airocobra and their big guns. I can't wait for some of the early war stuff myself the ju-87 stuka, the p-39 airocobra, the p-40 warhawk (kittyhawk), the huricane, the f4f wildcat, the ki-34 oscar, the a6m2 zero, the p51b, and the swordfish.

I mean realistically the f4u1c and f3u1d are perty much the same plane. maight as well just call it an f4u with the option of 4 20mm, 2 20mm and 2 50cals, 4 50cals, and 6 50cals. I bet there would be alot less whining.  

Iam ammazed theres more crying about the f4u1c as there is a n1k2-j. the n1k2j is absolutely evil in its leathality with ammo options of 400/400 and 400/500 for it's 4 20mm type 99 cannons. It turns and climbs better then a f4u holds it's e better and is almost as fast. personally the most scarry thing for me is a high 109 or 190. usually the 109 and 190 pilots have been around longer have more skill (specially the 190 guys) they know how to use their alt and E and have some of the most leathal guns in AH (30mm). add the frank jack and tony to the japanese plane set and the f4u drivers have to fly in groups and use tactics beyond the head on.

the head on that brings me to another point of why people cry about the f4u1c, they try with thier 50cals and 303s to drop a chog in pure straight head on. guess what he's gunna win. your really want to mess mr head on chog drivers day up... avoid the head on. typically a head on is a 50/50 deal any way. you have the colision as a factor as well as the guns. i bet more then 75% off all succesfull head ons end in both players loosing. the best way to even attempt a head on is in a off angle rather then straight in. namely cuase he has less of chance to get you and even if you miss or don't kill him with a light pull on the stick your right on his six.

The solution to the chog is simple. if you don't like it don't fly it. Don't get into head ons with it unless your in a fw190a8 and stil then its the same thing 50/50 with a colision factor to boot. force it to overhsoot you in the head on leaving him infront, under, or infront and under you. Use your planes strengths against his weaknesses, and stay off his nose get on his tail. killing the f4u1c is no difrent then killling a f4u1d.

personally I love the f4u1c and d. lately Ive been spending more time in the n1k2-j p51d 109g10 and bombers. why becuase there already to many people flying the f4u iam better in a n1k2 and I want to try more aircraft while not ading to the whining about the f4u1c. I don't want it perked and wish peopl ewould save it for assualt or buff busting.

theres nothing funner then killing a f4 who is trying to Head on shoot you. I avoid the Head on by rocking my plane back and forth on the way to the merge slightly diving under him before he gets within gun range i nose my plane down then up rolling around him and out of his gun solution. then I roll over going over the top in a shallow immelman  or high yo-yo puting me above and behind him. If he has to much speed I just press him and as he tries again and agian eventually he ends with to choices run or continue and die. If he has alot fo alt on you remember he has to come down to kill you. force him lower and lower if he does get lucky he will be so low one of your buddies will surely get him. but avoid the head on with him and try to get him to blow his alt and E the f4u doesn't do so hot slow low with no E. It works great with spits yaks n1k2s 109s 202s 205s and the zeke (remember the zeke is slow so keep that in account) hell i bet even a good f6f driver can do it.



------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"

[Ripsnort]

This has been discussed many times over the last year within these forums.  I believe it comes down to a thin line dividing realism and gameplay, gamplay getting the call since new players might get disgusted when guns freeze, or think that the game itself is buggy.  I like realism as much as anyone else, but this would open a big can of worms...hell, we already have lengthy discussing about the lethality of the 20mm hispano's compared to the German equivilent, can you imagine opening pandora's box on reliability?

Just food for thought.

[RAM]

I find funny that after many people here have asked for this quote, begged for this quote, refused to admit things until they saw a quote like this, laughed saying that they would only believe the unreliability of the hispano when they saw some quote like this...

I find funny, I say, that after 4 hours of this quote in the forum there is almost no answer from the Hardcore Pro-Hispano AH lobby. Except Ripsnort, of course    

can you imagine opening pandora's box on reliability?

Of course. But you forget about one thing: The pandora box was already opened months ago and closed AT ONCE by half the community saying that the bad reliability of the hispanos wasnt true. They asked for data and quotes. I gave a source (a book about Corsairs, I will search for it again) where it was said just great that the hispanos in 1945 were still jamming all day long, especially over 10-15K feet. You have now a precise and self-explaining quote to read.

Mausers were lethal highly reliable guns. American Hispanos (British too at least at the first) were lethal guns with crappy reliability.

The difference on the damage caused is too much IMO. Its discussed, and the discussion is already sealed and in the grave. Hispanos are turbolasers because (Rant: they were allied),They had a high muzzle velocity and ballistic performance...or not?

 Noone cared about the fact that AP and HE rounds have different ballistics in real life, yet in AH we have a mixed ammo for the Hispanos...WITH NO BALLISTIC DIFFERENCES    

 Noone cared that the B17s were shot down with few mine shell hits from Mausers. ( Rant: As it was a german weapon, it cant be that good, isnt it?).

 and now you PRETEND That noone CARES ABOUT MAUSERS PREMIER ADVANTAGE over the turbolaser? ITS RELIABILITY?

Oh, no sir. THe can of worms is open. Model the gun jamming, please, and you will **suddenly** see a good drop on the 20% of kills by the F4U1-c. No need to perk it, right?    



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]

[Mayhem]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
I find funny that after many people here have asked for this quote, begged for this quote, refused to admit things until they saw a quote like this, laughed saying that they would only believe the unreliability of the hispano when they saw some quote like this...

I find funny, I say, that after 4 hours of this quote in the forum there is almost no answer from the Hardcore Pro-Hispano AH lobby. Except Ripsnort, of course  

   

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-09-2001).]

I think we already have an equivlent to malfuncions, such as your engine dying your guns failing, your wings falling off, and sabotage.... Bugs, Computer errors, Disconects (I know that last F$%#*&* router is set to poinson), and intoxicated players!

 


------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"

[Ripsnort]

Ram, I don't think its being ignored by a 'said-Pro-Hispano' group of people, I believe the topic has been hashed over many times...again, it comes down to HTC's decision of gameplay vs realism, and how much of that would turn away customers.

It's my opinion that in a box sim, gun jams have its place, however in an online sim, it *could* be detrimental to membership.  I think that's why you haven't seen it in Warbirds, or see it here...after all, these guys have been doing flight sims for quite some time, and this subject has been on the table countless times.  It's their business, their judgement call.  Personally, makes no difference to me.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Mayhem:

I think we already have an equivlent to malfuncions, such as your engine dying your guns failing, your wings falling off, and sabotage.... Bugs, Computer errors, Disconects (I know that last F$%#*&* router is set to poinson), and intoxicated players!

 

Oh, but you forget that those were non.influenced by the pilot (PC User in AH)-

Still we have to see:

-Engine management (to put the engine over the red line doesnt mean you have no wep, means you have NO ENGINE  )

-Gun abuse Jamming (If you fire a 20 second burst from your trusty Chog, your guns' breeck and muzzles will get fusioned  )

-Pilot endurance (so you can pull 2 6G consecutive maneouvers, and the third you notice that you are fading away breathless  )

-Kommandogėrat: So if you aren't in a 190 be ready to get used to manage RPM, Mixture, engine Manifold pressure...and dont forget about the RED LINE!!!  

-AMMO COUNTERS ON GERMAN PLANES ONLY!: Just try to figure this: Dweeb1 turns his Chog to headon the valiant Experten1 in his 190A. He goes for the headon, presses the fire button as usual at 1.5K to fire his 20 second burst to cover the valiant Experten1 in a flame of turbolaser...when he notices that after 2 seconds of fire his cannons have no ammo!!!...how  he could know it? He had NO ammo counter!!!

Dweeb1: oh how bad is the realistic cockpit...I want the ammo counters back WAAAH WAAAH

 

may I follow?

[Ripsnort]

I smell an ego-fart.  

[Pongo]

Kweassa
We need a reference for that quote please.

[Mayhem]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
Oh, but you forget that those were non.influenced by the pilot (PC User in AH)-

Still we have to see:

-Engine management (to put the engine over the red line doesnt mean you have no wep, means you have NO ENGINE   )

-Gun abuse Jamming (If you fire a 20 second burst from your trusty Chog, your guns' breeck and muzzles will get fusioned   )

-Pilot endurance (so you can pull 2 6G consecutive maneouvers, and the third you notice that you are fading away breathless   )

-Kommandogėrat: So if you aren't in a 190 be ready to get used to manage RPM, Mixture, engine Manifold pressure...and dont forget about the RED LINE!!!  

-AMMO COUNTERS ON GERMAN PLANES ONLY!: Just try to figure this: Dweeb1 turns his Chog to headon the valiant Experten1 in his 190A. He goes for the headon, presses the fire button as usual at 1.5K to fire his 20 second burst to cover the valiant Experten1 in a flame of turbolaser...when he notices that after 2 seconds of fire his cannons have no ammo!!!...how  he could know it? He had NO ammo counter!!!

Dweeb1: oh how bad is the realistic cockpit...I want the ammo counters back WAAAH WAAAH

 

may I follow?

First off all most of those you can't dictate ingame. People machines are defrrent. Fact You can make a 20cal 50cal 20mm 25mm glow red hot before it malfuntions if it's properly maintained (cleaned and lubricated). Ive even warped barrels and still been able to shoot rounds threw them.

Blackouts is an issue of a persons physical condition. An out of shape person will black out faster and faster then a in shape person. Pilots typicaly do feel strain under high G's but given enough time between high G loads thier tolerance will be the same. think ive gone over this to many times on the falcon boards.

fuel mixtures, rpm, cowl flaps trim management, all of these are really unnessesry things that take away from the game. and I still have to do it threw a keyboard mouse and joystick on a monitor that only represents about 40 deg by 40 deg rather then my full vision 185 deg by 120 deg plus the abilaty to turn my head. in alot more directions then snap views alow me. want to make it real have some one put a gun to your head if you get shot down they pull the trigger thats about as real as you can get. I want real flight models not a control system that requires me to invest 1300 bucks on a vertial cockpit plus a 300 dollar hotas rig and 3 quickshot's and a PC dash. mabey in 20 years we will have the technoligy for it but most of us are running 400mhz systems 128mb ram and a voodoo 2/3 or Nvidia TNT card. some of the luckier people like me have a full hotas rig, but most people are using twisty sticks. Ive nver liked trim its about 6 more controls I have to deal with most of the time I didn't and just used kentuky windage. Some of this would be neat but would die after a while and alienate more and more players. If you got every thing you wanted you would have your very own sim unfortunetly you would be the only one playing it. Oh we can also rule out most forms of autopilot on almost every plane. did i mention you the more youplay the dumber and more experianced you would have to get if you wanted to fly jap or german planes. training would be completely out of it cuase theres no fuel for you to train with.

Ammo gauges ...Have you looked into every WWII cockpit? Ive seen a few and some of the US planes actually had guages for ammo or a low ammo indicator light (most did I think) it wasn't an accurate number guage like we have in AH or warbirds (Air warrior uses a pointer guage like a fuel gage) but I don't think the Fw190 even later models did either.

and Ia am right you get enough malfunctions Due to bugs, power outages, comptuer errors, and disconects to account for some of the random stuff every one wants in game like malfunctions in engines, wings falling off ect.

The gun malfunction due to heavy use sound great but realistically they wheren't that common to begin with. it happened from time to time like engine trouble with your car. most planes didn't have enough ammo per gun to cook a barrel but yes from time to time it did happen it still does but it's rare. most of weapon malfuntions are due to missuse (Iam talking about using you gun as hammer) and poor maintanance.

I think its fair to give every one a perfect sample of the plane they want to fly. I think its a good idea that a player doesn't have to spend a week learning to manage his controls and guages and spend most of his time in the air dealing with cowl flaps trim and fuel mixtures. we would have to add in they could fly for years in the game and never ever see a bandit. and those that did see a bandit would have to have spent 4 hours flying there 15 seconds of fight and another 4 hours back. most people would be lucky to get 2 kills in the first year of the game. Want to unballance the game add in kamakazi's the plane counts as 2 bombs and the 2 bombs they carry are pre armed adnd will detonate when they crash great for scenerios but not for the MA. oh ya we have night lets add in fog so you have to land by intrament alone since this is janurary thats 12 hours a day of the game.


What you want would typically destroy the game for all but mabey 5% of the players. I mean ide love to see your ideas in a boxed sim myself with full true blue reality added in such as controls cowl flaps trim fuel mixuure ect. but not hear It would ruin the game for all but a very select and exclusive few.

------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"

[Fishu]

If they'll ever listen to you RAM, I'll buy you couple of beers.

or for anyone else about LW or hispano matter ..

I have strong feeling that talking about super hispanos that can fire whole magazine empty on one long burst or peahost mausers wont have any effect.

'average customer' in AH is defined as american, who wants to fly those famed US irons..
of course those are not bad, but favored bit too much over others (somehow russians, germans and italians are on the same line, but US has wonderous weapons.. and miracle, brits too, at least hispano was theirs)

[Westy]

 Fishu, you're playing that scratchy old propoganda record again I see.

 -Westy

[Mayhem]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
If they'll ever listen to you RAM, I'll buy you couple of beers.

or for anyone else about LW or hispano matter ..

I have strong feeling that talking about super hispanos that can fire whole magazine empty on one long burst or peahost mausers wont have any effect.

'average customer' in AH is defined as american, who wants to fly those famed US irons..
of course those are not bad, but favored bit too much over others (somehow russians, germans and italians are on the same line, but US has wonderous weapons.. and miracle, brits too, at least hispano was theirs)

We invented the freakin A bomb didn't we plus we had the nards to use it! twice!

We put a man on the moon! any other country can say the same? no! Ok then  

(I will say though I love german weapons I love the H&K usp the H&K 91 93 and g10 I currently own a sig sauer p229 .40cal gotta love german and swiss guns. and please don't any one mentiaon the glock piece a crap mattel toy tupperware microwave safe works better if you throw it at them austrian gun!)

------------------
Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"

[Tac]

That was not nice Mayhem.

Fact: The A-Bomb was developed from Einstein's theory. Einstein was German. Most of the scientists that made the bomb possible were refugee or recent immigrants into the US (most fleeing from war torn europe).

The man US put on the Moon was there thanks to a GERMAN rocket scientist that the US captured after the war was over.

News for you: The Russians were first in Space. They also currently hold the record for having the only almost permanently manned object in space: MIR (which the US loves to throw negative propaganda at... they hate how they screwed up with SKYLAB).

"plus we had the nards to use it! twice"

Yeah, I can see your delight in the use of weapons of mass destruction on civilians. Mustve been a great challenge for the US military then. How sickening.

In short: ALLIED OPPORTUNISTS *grin*

On the good hand though, US does have good television  

Back on topic:

Gun jams would be fun to have, digital ammo counters should be removed (it MAY cure the spray and pray) and the N1k and CHOG should be perked (albeit, cheap perks). My personal view on these perks is that they shouldnt be perked due to popularity, but due to unbalancing factors. Any snapshot killing plane only encourages poor acm'ing, quaking and worst of all, if HTC adds early war planes no one will fly them because they would be facing late war monsters that spew turbolaser hispano around like lies at a political rally.

I applaud HTC for perking the CHOG. Im tired of shooting down the same plane over and over and over and over. Its a blue version of the energizer bunny!    



[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 01-09-2001).]