Author Topic: "Rhubarb" 22, Sept. Snapshot (Read 751 times)

Hening · « **on:** September 21, 2004, 12:57:43 PM »

"Rhubarb"

The skies of Western Europe witnessed some of the most intense and skilled dogfighting of the war. Rhubarbs were run by The RAF in order to keep the Luftwaffe busy. The price The RAF paid was a heavy one, poking and prodding the Luftwaffe Aces in order to relieve political pressure of their Soviet Allies.

The British Spitfire Model IX and German Focke Wulf 190 Model D, two of the choicest fighters engage over France at 10pm EST on 22, Sept. Do you have what it takes? Really??

Walk-Ons are always cherished.

Charon · « **Reply #1 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:01:06 PM »

Just curious, but shouldn't the matchup be more along the lines of the Spit V and the FW-190 A5 series? Bostons could be added as well.

Charon

Hening · « **Reply #2 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:10:57 PM »

Based on the rhubarbs run as operations prior to the Normandy Invasion, this is an accurate representation. Possibly if the missions were earlier in the war, earlier models would be used. The Boston would not be seen on fighter search and destroy missions, unless somone in design was substituting it for a P39

(joking)

Charon · « **Reply #3 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:29:47 PM »

Yeah, I was thinking more of a Circus.

Charon

Karnak · « **Reply #4 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:54:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hening
Based on the rhubarbs run as operations prior to the Normandy Invasion, this is an accurate representation. Possibly if the missions were earlier in the war, earlier models would be used. The Boston would not be seen on fighter search and destroy missions, unless somone in design was substituting it for a P39 (joking)

That's complete BS. The Fw190D-9 wasn't even in service yet and you're claiming it is accurate to put it against a slow 1942 Spitfire F.Mk IX.

What a freaking farce.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2004, 01:54:46 PM »

Spit IX vs 190D9? Interesting matchup since the D9 didn't show until the Fall of 44 and the IX we have is the 42 version.

Spit XIV vs D9 over Holland and Germany in the Fall/Winter of 44/45 would make sense.

Spit IX vs 190A8 pre-D-Day or the Spit V/IX vs the 190A5, 109G 1942-43 style

Dan/Slack

Hening · « **Reply #6 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:06:32 PM »

The FW 190D appeared in late 1943. Since all models of the 190D are not available in the sim, it was my choice to use the version available.

OK, we have one person feeling that the SpitIX was a later model and another feeling it was an earlier model for this design. Doesn't that average it out?

My suggestions:

A) Calm down for heavens sake. Save that angst for something really important.

B) Show up and fly and then comment on the design. It's more productive for future designs.

Karnak · « **Reply #7 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:18:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hening
The FW 190D appeared in late 1943. Since all models of the 190D are not available in the sim, it was my choice to use the version available.

OK, we have one person feeling that the SpitIX was a later model and another feeling it was an earlier model for this design. Doesn't that average it out?

My suggestions:

A) Calm down for heavens sake. Save that angst for something really important.

B) Show up and fly and then comment on the design. It's more productive for future designs.

So far as I know the Fw190D series did not enter service until fall, 1944. Certainly none that did 378mph at sea level.

The Spitfire Mk IX in AH is powered by a Merlin 61. About 300 of these were built, all in 1942. No it doesn't even it out. Also, both Guppy and myself said the same thing regarding the setup.

Run this if you want, but you may as well declare the Luftwaffe the winner right now. I see no point in participating in something that is as lopsided as this. Speed in AH2 is far, far more important than it was in AH1. The Spitfire Mk IX is a shadow of it's former self due to the change in gunnery which mostly eliminated long range shooting. It can no longer break trun away, roll back in line and shoot the retreating fast aircraft.

BTW, nothing to calm down as I'm not upset. I just think it laughable that somebody put the term "realistic" on this setup. Thus I called it a farce.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:28:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hening
The FW 190D appeared in late 1943. Since all models of the 190D are not available in the sim, it was my choice to use the version available.

OK, we have one person feeling that the SpitIX was a later model and another feeling it was an earlier model for this design. Doesn't that average it out?

My suggestions:

A) Calm down for heavens sake. Save that angst for something really important.

B) Show up and fly and then comment on the design. It's more productive for future designs.

LOL definately calm. Just pointing out that that the D model 190 did not enter combat until the Fall of 44. It didn't fight until then. The Luftwaffe experts are the ones who pointed it out to me during some discussions on reports by Allied pilots of D9's prior to this time. They simply weren't there in combat.

Figured setting the record straight was the way to go since it isn't accurate to say the D was flying in action before D-Day cause it wasn't.

Why not use the Spit XIV then since it WAS flying combat before D-Day?

Frankly, since Rhubarbs were low level ops, I'd rather have the current AH2 Spit V then the FIX to fly it since the Spit V performs better down low

Dan/Slack

Hening · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:04:36 PM »

OK now that everyone is calm.....

The FW190D was first reported in combat against US Bombers in late 1943. It had been delivered in 1943 late Spring, early Summer to a few units for testing The liquid cooled engine design was in response to high altitude bombers. Possibly the first hurdle in this discussion is to agree when the 190-D actually entered service. The 190 D0 and D-1 are not available in the mix so the D-9, which was in production about the same time as The Normandy Invasion being all that is selectable, is what's available.

In order to put together an event, a short length event at that, and put two aircraft against each other I felt these two AH models (repeat...AH models) were a good match for skilled pilots. The facts written up when The RAF captured a 190A and compared it to a 1942 Spit IX had the Spit outperforming the 190A in some areas that the 190D would have challenged.

Having flown both AH models it seems like a fair fight to me. The true test is when people fly this event and then I will be very interested to hear the critiques, especially from Spit pilots.

On a persoanl note, the "realistic" note was in regards to the two aircraft being present at the time the event takes place. Due to some restrictions, the element of "what if" always plays a part in any of the snap-shots I've designed. It simply has to, or in my opinion they would not be "playable". Refering to that as a farce is a bit over the top.

Hening · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:19:39 PM »

Guppy,

You seemed calm. I read both posts at the same time and the first was a bit more "spicey", and I responded to both.

As far as low altitude missions, I gave up on that several designs ago in terms of dictating altitude. One side was always protesting an aircraft beyond it's limits and attempting to limit "how high" never worked out well.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:20:48 PM »

The Luftwaffe experts have pointed to III./JG54 receiving 18 new D-9s in Sept 44 as the introduction of the 190D into active service.

It's come up in a number of different discussions over time and this is the consistant date repeated each time.

Some of JG26 converted to the D9 sometime after this. JG26 was in 190As and 109s prior to this. And they were the main opposition to the Rhubarbs.

In the original discussions I had quoted a book that stated 190D9s were first operational in the winter of 43-44 and I was quickly shown that it was not accurate.

The funny part is I had seen the Allied pilot reports of "long noses" in early 44 so I was ready to buy it. But I was quickly corrected by the Luftwaffe guys.

Dan/Slack

Karnak · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:22:33 PM »

Well, do what you like.

The fact is that you are running an fantasy setup. E.g., what if the Germans had Fw190D-9s in the summer of 1942 instead of fall, 1944.

Karnak · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:27:00 PM »

I am not aware of any Fw190Ds that were used as service aircraft prior to the Fw190D-9. The Fw190Ds prior to that were really development aircraft, IIRC. I'm at work, my books are at home (except one Mossie book).

Hening · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2004, 03:51:08 PM »

Karnak,

If you look at many of the ideas that are instituted into events, there is a bit of poetic license to make the events more interesting or playable. There's no joy in an accurate mission where outnumbered LW pilots get creamed prior to Normandy. Possibly arm chair pilots will take delight in the accuracy, but the folks that actually fly these events will feel like they wasted their time.

I thought about using the 190A but decided on the 190D since it's a better fit for the type of event and the AH Spit IX can fly circles around the AH 190A.

Never would I argue with the LW experts, but there is resourced evidence that the 190D was being flown as the 0 and 1 series with the next series after the 1 being the 9 (numbers 2 through 8 were skipped) that was in the sky during the Summer of 1944, which is the time of this event. I believe JG3 "Udet" Geschwader received the aircraft around the time you mentioned, but it would not be "fantasy" to imagine that other units would have had the aircraft and just not as celebrated.