Von Richtofens Death

[Squire]

It seems there is some article by Daniel Orme and Thomas Hyatt ( 2 neuropsychologists) is going to be published in "Human Factors and Aerospace Safety" that claims it was the Barons head wound (from a .303 round fired by a 2 seater) that he sustained in July 1917 that was responsible for his "target fixation" that got him killed in April 1918.

I find this rather questionable, since he shot down another 22 a/c after this head wound occured (more kills than 90 percent of all WW1 aces), not to mention he led JG1 on top of that, doing admin work as well...

Victory's post "wound":

 58 Aug. 16, 1917 Nieuport 17 Houthulster Wald
59 Aug. 26, 1917 Spad VII Poelcapelle
60 Sept. 2, 1917 RE 8 Zonebeke
61 Sept. 3, 1917 Sopwith Pup Bousbecque
62 Nov. 23, 1917 DH 5 Bourlon Wood
63 Nov. 30, 1917 SE 5a Moevres
64 Mar. 12, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Nauroy
65 Mar. 13, 1918 Sopwith Camel Gonnelieu
66 Mar. 18, 1918 Sopwith Camel Andigny
67 Mar. 24, 1918 SE 5a Combles
68 Mar. 25, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison
69 Mar. 26, 1918 Sopwith Camel Contalmaison
70 Mar. 26, 1918 RE 8 Albert
71 Mar. 27, 1918 Sopwith Camel Aveluy
72 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Foucacourt
73 Mar. 27, 1918 Bristol Fighter F 2b Chuignolles
74 Mar. 28, 1918 Armstrong Whitworth FK 8 Mericourt
75 April 2, 1918 FE 8 Moreuil
76 April 6, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneux
77 April 7, 1918 SE 5a Hangard
78 April 7, 1918 Spad VII Villers-Bretonneux
79 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Bois-de-Hamel
80 April 20, 1918 Sopwith Camel Villers-Bretonneux

He wasnt the only ace to get fixated on an enemy fighter in WW1, he made a tactical mistake yes, but there seems to be little evidence that the head wound was a decisive factor in his final combat. He was tired to be sure, and his wound did give him trouble, but thats a far cry from calling him unfit to fly in combat. That being said, in WW2 and after, he probably would have been grounded after sustaining a wound like he did, in most air forces.

Anyways, interesting stuff.

[ra]

These neuropsychologists are entitled to speculate all they want.  They'll probably get invited to do some interviews, etc., so they'll get a few free lunches out of it.

I guess they think he would have shot down  200 planes and survived the war had it not been for the injury.

Everyone knows the Red Baron was shot down by a black and white dog flying a doghouse.

[midnight Target]

I saw a show in history channel that had compelling evidence to suggest he was killed by ground fire.

[Curval]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I saw a show in history channel that had compelling evidence to suggest he was killed by ground fire.

Australian gunfire too.

[Torque]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I saw a show in history channel that had compelling evidence to suggest he was killed by ground fire.

Yep, i'd have to agree it was ground fire, damn Aussies!

[lasersailor184]

Err, I'm pretty sure it was a canadian MG nest the shot came from.  Ironically, it was an Enfield that had the killing shot (or so they believe).

[Octavius]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Err, I'm pretty sure it was a canadian MG nest the shot came from.  Ironically, it was an Enfield that had the killing shot (or so they believe).

Who is 'they' ?  Err, wrong.  

"The controversy as to who was responsible for shooting down von Richthofen has continued over the years. C E W Bean, the author of the Official History of Australia in the War of 1914 to 1918, carried out considerable research into the death and devoted an Appendix, in Volume V of the Official History, published in 1935, to describe the circumstances in detail (1). Bean was of the opinion that Sergeant Popkin, an Australian Vickers machine gunner, was responsible for shooting down von Richthofen and that Captain Brown had not fired the fatal shot."

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/comment/richt.htm

[lasersailor184]

Oops, my bad, thought it was the other way around.

[Wotan]

I think he means Canadian Roy Brown. Brown was initially credited with MVR's "kill".

Second PBS ran a special examining MVR death and concluded that it was in fact Popkin's Vickers MG that brought down MVR.

They also stated that the weather / wind during the chase actually pushed the combatants toward the lines. However, if we are to believe that ground fire brought down MVR then it was more a matter of bad luck on the part of MVR or good luck on the part of Popkin. I don't think MVR's mental state will change that.

It will never be anything but speculation and pure guessing as to what went through MVR's mind. There are plenty of examples of other pilots violating their own personal "RoE". I could cite many examples from WW2.

It may make for an interesting discussion but all it ever will amount to is "guessing".

[Squire]

Yes there were at least 2 Aussie MG positions that fired on him, as well as riflemen, he was flying over Aussie lines when he was hit. Most recent evidence would indicate ground fire.

Captain Brown reported that he had "fired on a red Triplane" in clearing Lt. May, and after MVR went down, he was credited with it. He had no idea when he filed his AAR that the Triplane was piloted by Von Richtofen, as many Triplanes and other German scouts in 1918 had red markings as well, not just Richtofen's. It would not have been the 1st time that an enemy machine was downed by ground fire but credited to a scout pilot, im sure WW1 and WW2 were full of incidents similar.

As far as the head wound thing, I think its bunk, it had nothing to do with MVRs final combat, that came some 9 months later.

Btw I read an autobiographical account of Richtofens called "The Red Knight of Germany" a fascinating read since most of it is in his own words, some months before he was killed. A fascinating man, much more so than a lot of the BS you hear about him.

[capt. apathy]

I think it's entirely possible, but kind of pointless to speculate about it now when there is no way to prove it one way or the other.

as a guy with head (and also neck) injuries, that were considerable less significant than a bullet wound, there are a lot of effects you wouldn't even think of, and some of them didn't get serious enough that you were sure there was a problem, for many months.  loss of SA is one of the first things that went.  along with that went my (previously, near perfect) internal compass.  now I couldn't even guess directions without a reference point.

with the time it takes for some symptoms to fully kick in, and the fact that you can get away with diminished SA if if nobody unexpected jumps in when you're fighting (not near as much of a problem to be target fixated if it's just you and the targ in the immediate area), I'd guess that it could easily have played a factor.  

I don't really understand what the point the guy is trying to make by taking his speculation public at this point.

[DREDIOCK]

Why dont they just dig him up and use modern forensics to find out what killed him?

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I saw a show in history channel that had compelling evidence to suggest he was killed by ground fire.

I saw this too, but IIRC they had said "that if he was in fact, killed by groundfire, they had to be crack shots".  It would be my guess though, that "fixation" BS is just that.  The man was a natural, had good instincts, and superior tactical use of the planes he used.

Karaya

[beet1e]

...that the Daily Telegraph ran a story about the Red Baron in today's edition. Here is the link, and the text. I've highlighted a couple of interesting passages...

URL to article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/22/wbaron22.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/09/22/ixportal.html

A head wound suffered by the Red Baron the year before his death was the underlying reason he was eventually shot down, according to a study by neuroscientists.

There has been endless speculation over who killed the 25-year-old First World War flying ace but the new study suggests that more credit is due to the British airman who grazed his skull in 1917 than to the Australian gunner who eventually brought him down in 1918.

The killing machine feared by the Allies and revered by his countrymen suffered significant brain damage to his frontal lobes when a machinegun round fired by Second Lieutenant A E Woodbridge of the Royal Flying Corps splintered his skull.

Against the advice of doctors and despite suffering nausea, headaches and fatigue, the baron was driven by a sense of duty to resume command of his "Flying Circus".

The most successful pilot of the war was still unfit to fly - his head wound had not healed - when his red Fokker triplane was shot down nine months later, according to a study in a forthcoming issue of Human Factors and Aerospace Safety.

The authors, Prof Daniel Orme of the University of Missouri-Columbia and Dr Thomas Hyatt, a semi-retired neuropsychologist of Cincinnati's Veterans' Administration Medical Centre, were inspired to investigate by a television documentary on the death of Manfred von Richthofen.

Dr Hyatt came across an earlier review of the baron's medical record in the Lancet by Dr Henning Allmers, a German, who suggested that he may have been unfit to fly. Yesterday, the American team spelt out the consequences of his wound.

It made the baron "disinhibited", so he pulled childish and impulsive stunts that were out of character. He also showed target fixation, recklessly pursuing a fleeing British pilot over enemy lines. "The baron violated the basic principles set forth in the air combat operations manual he himself wrote," they said.

Had he been evaluated today, "he would have been given that pronouncement feared by all aviators, DNIF (Duties Not to Include Flying)," said Prof Orme.

Woodbridge inflicted the fateful wound on July 6, 1917, by which time the baron had been awarded the coveted Pour le Merite - the Blue Max - and had 57 victories.

He had attacked British biplanes and was nonplussed when Woodbridge opened fire from his FE2 bomber. The baron later recalled: "I calmly let him shoot, for even the best sharpshooter's marksmanship could not help at a distance of 300 metres. One just does not hit.

"Suddenly something struck me in the head. For a moment, my whole body was paralysed. My arms hung down limply beside me; my legs flopped loosely beyond my control. The worst was that a nerve leading to my eyes had been paralysed and I was completely blind."

Richthofen quickly regained power over his arms and legs and enough eyesight to land but then passed out. There was a 4in groove in his skull and his record refers to "severe concussion and even more probable, a cerebral haemorrhage".

Although he complained of head pains, dizziness and a buzzing in his ears, Richthofen was back in the air 40 days later and succeed in adding another kill to his record. But he experienced such nausea and weakness that, after a shaky landing, he had to be helped from his plane and put to bed by his batman. On the day he died, April 22, he chased a disarmed Sopwith Camel flown by a Canadian newcomer, Lt Wilfred May, down to treetop level and through enemy lines, while himself being pursued by a second fighter.

"There were bits and pieces of his aircraft flying off, but he persevered," said Dr Hyatt.

Richthofen was attacked by the Australian 24th machinegun battery along with the anti-aircraft batteries of the 53rd Australian Field Artillery. One of the gunners, Robert Buie, later wrote: "Had he not been so intent upon shooting down Lt May, he could have easily manoeuvred his machine."

This fixated behaviour is typical of damage to the frontal lobes, where "executive functioning" takes place, affecting reasoning, memory, and emotional control.

"The baron was a hunter, and this instinct became unbridled," said Dr Hyatt. "When he found himself in trouble he could not or would not break off the pursuit to save himself. This rigid behaviour is perseveration, associated with dysfunction involving the frontal lobes."

When one of the many gunners found his mark the baron's guns stopped abruptly, his goggles flew out of the plane and there was a change in the engine sounds. By the time allied soldiers reached the wrecked triplane, von Richthofen was dead.

Alan Bennett, a Canadian historian and co-author of The Red Baron's Last Flight, said that the injury may have affected von Richthofen's judgment but not his flying ability, pointing out that he had shot down two Sopwith Camels within a few minutes the day before.

Bennett points out that another critical factor was that the prevailing winds had reversed direction and clouds obscured the ground, so German pilots had inadvertently drifted into Allied territory. Dr Hyatt replied: "When you do an accident investigation, you usually find factors built upon each other. That is what happened with the Red Baron."

[Squire]

No need to dig him up, the British Army did an autopsy on him days after he was downed. He died from a single .303 bullet would that passed through his heart, killing him almost instantly.

Again, in a 9 month career "post wound" he downed another 22 a/c and led JG1...so a lot of what the article claims I think is simply disproved by those facts. He would not have lasted 9 days let alone 9 months if we beleive their thesis. Who would have, on the Western Front , in 1918?