Author Topic: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...  (Read 1234 times)

Offline Serenity

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2008, 12:17:59 AM »
This is wrong. It comes from the Sourcebooks for the old West End Games Star Wars RPG and was based on a misinterpretation of "Five times as powerful" meaning "five times as LARGE." The EGVV (editions 1, 2, and so on) are just repeating the same bad information, and introduce all SORTS of problems of their own (their schematics for most of the ships are just plain WRONG. If you go by their schematics for the E-wing, the cockpit area is no more than three feet wide!)

Also wrong. This was a half-assed attempt to "fix" the error after enough people called them on it.

I'll have to double-check, but I believe the quote came from X-wing Book 4: The Bacta War, and the officer said 11 times, which is the 17.6km length I indicated above. Been a while since I read it, but I remember that the quote nailed the length exactly.

I have EGV v1, and it places the Eclipse at 16km.

As far as differences in the sources, you have to look at the overall context.

The first published size statements by West End Games places Executor at 8km long. This is contrary to not only ILM information, but visual "yardsticking" using the Imperial Star Destroyer in all scenes where the two ships are shown side-by-side (one in particular shot from ESB shows an ISD behind Executor that is clearly at LEAST 1/11 the size of the smaller ship. A second ISD is in front at nearly the same scale. ALL SUBSEQUENT STAR WARS MATERIAL was required by the licensing agreements with LucasFilm to abide by the West End Games data.

Later editions of the Sourcebooks attempted to fix the discrepancy by slowly bumping up the size. The new Wizards of the Coast game further worked to correct this, unfortunately the damage was done.

A few authors like Stackpole recognized these mistakes and fixed them, although they had to do it VERY subtly to slip past the licensing police.

I'm not sure if the site is still there, but look for the Star Wars Technical Commentaries by Curtis Saxton. He did a VERY in-depth analysis on this. The "Size of the SSD" article is the most valuable thing on the site. The rest you can pretty much ignore, as Saxton puts a lot of his own politics and ego into it. I, and others, have pointed out flaws in some of his arguments (naval terminology on the whole and as relates to Star Destroyers in particular--he consistently ignores the fact that Star Destroyer is a proper noun, not a "destroyer" in the traditional sense--and pretty much every shred of "evidence" he claims is in the RotJ film that proves the Ewoks were wiped out by the Death Star explosion is actually heavily forced and truthfully non-existent) but unfortunately, Mr. Saxton likes to wave his astro-physics degree in everyone's face, despite the fact that outside of actual FUNCTIONALITY that really doesn't lend much to analysis of the ships themselves.

Also, as a bit of shameless self-promotion, I wrote this up a while ago:

Starfighters of the Rebellion

I only got as far as a general survey, and the specific page on the X-wing before I lost interest. It's pretty old, though.

It looks best if you download this font: StarJedi

;)

God I forgot how much I missed discussions like this! lol. (I used to play another online video game about starwars...)

We are complete nerds knowing all of this, but yes, I agree completely.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2008, 12:38:02 AM »
Been several years since I've really looked at any of this, too. God, the memories. Had some great discussions on Rob Brown's forums before he closed up shop right about the time Episode II was released. Rob Brown was LITERALLY the guy that people at the Ranch told horror stories about. This is NOT a joke. One of the best ways to lose influence with Lucas was to mention you're a friend of Rob Brown! He was actually cast as a Jedi extra in the Arena Battle of Episode II, but as soon as they found out who he was, they got political on him and had ILM digitally paint him out whenever he was on-screen (after giving him the cheapest, worst-looking costume after they "lost" his measurements). He has a special hatred of Jedi Sword Dance fight choreographer Nick Gilliard, who fell in love with a bunch of hippies who "practiced" kendo, but were actually a bunch of skill-less tools and gave them the attention over Rob and the guys who REALLY knew their stuff. He also absolutely REFUSED to accept any technical argument derived from West End Games.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Serenity

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2008, 12:48:48 AM »
Been several years since I've really looked at any of this, too. God, the memories. Had some great discussions on Rob Brown's forums before he closed up shop right about the time Episode II was released. Rob Brown was LITERALLY the guy that people at the Ranch told horror stories about. This is NOT a joke. One of the best ways to lose influence with Lucas was to mention you're a friend of Rob Brown! He was actually cast as a Jedi extra in the Arena Battle of Episode II, but as soon as they found out who he was, they got political on him and had ILM digitally paint him out whenever he was on-screen (after giving him the cheapest, worst-looking costume after they "lost" his measurements). He has a special hatred of Jedi Sword Dance fight choreographer Nick Gilliard, who fell in love with a bunch of hippies who "practiced" kendo, but were actually a bunch of skill-less tools and gave them the attention over Rob and the guys who REALLY knew their stuff. He also absolutely REFUSED to accept any technical argument derived from West End Games.

Well, from the sound of things, he was right!

Offline Saxman

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2008, 08:52:28 AM »
I took more of a compromise approach: The films over-ruled all else--PERIOD--followed by the novelizations/radio dramas OF the films. Pre-production or other work used directly in the making of the films was then the next choice to fill in the blanks. What was left was filled out using the other source material (common sense, historical precedence, and actual science came first, followed by the games, novels, comics, etc).

The one that would have been most interesting to do is the E-wing, because she's probably the fighter that has the most material on her WITHOUT having originated in the films. She's also my favorite ship in the EU.

Highlights of that page would have been:

The EGV blueprints are impossible. With a stated length of ~11m long, the schematics would make the ship no more than a meter wide at the cockpit. It wouldn't have been possible to fit a pilot in there.

Unlike the X-wing, which has the film model to go by, there IS no consistent visual reference on the E-wing. Although the general configuration remains the same, all other details vary depending on who's doing the artwork. Personally, I prefer the design as presented in Dark Empire. Although the artwork isn't the best, it's still the original source material so should hold the same precedence as the films do for fighters such as the X-wing. This changes a LOT of details about this ship, including:

The dorsal cannon becomes SIGNIFICANTLY larger. Almost twice the length of the two wing cannon.

The EGV locates a "pod" under the centerline that it labels as a single torpedo launcher. In no image of the ship within Dark Empire is such a pod present. Only the two under-wing pods where the aft landing gear retract can be seen in all representations of the ship.

The silouhette itself changes. The EGV ship is stubbier, with an X-wing-like nosecone.. The wings have a forward/aft symmetry and the wingtip is rather short with a strong anhedral. Her dorsal cannon is the same length as the wing guns. The wing engine pods are centered under the wings (forward/aft). The Dark Empire E-wing is sleeker and has more of a hawk-like nosecone. Additionally, the wings have a more gradual downward angle, and the span of the wingtip is greater. They're also more rhomboid, with a nearly straight trailing edge and a strongly swept leading edge. The dorsal cannon is also much longer, extending well past the canopy. The wing engines are not centered in their mounts, but instead extend further forward.

The engine location, well below the vessel's center of mass, is impractical. Without some other mechanism, torque from the off-center line of thrust would make the ship perpetually loop in space. This is solved by:

There is the possibility the ship has THREE, not two, engines. Incidental artwork in Dark Empire shows engine thrust originating from the fighter's aft bulkhead. This is further supported by Crimson Empire, which clearly shows E-wings with an engine array in the rear bulkhead. Additionally, there is the intake/cooling grill assembly on the flanks of the fuselage beneath the cockpit. No other fighter has this, EXCEPT when associated with engines (note the intakes on the B-wing for comparison). The wing engines already have such an opening (similar to the X-wing's). Likely the centerline engines counter the the rotational torque of the wing engines.

The DE E-wing has a prominent ovoid opening on each side of the nose cone. The structure is identical to the torpedo launcher ports on the X-wing. If true, this would DEFINITELY overrule the West End Games stat of a single launcher tube. Experiments I did with 3D models HAVE shown the E-wing can carry the 16-torpedo loadout (rotating launcher track similar to the Y-wing's in the Incredible Cross-section book).

There's some evidence that the E-wing carries a pair of ion cannon. First, the lead E-wing in Dark Empire orders his squadrons to arm their "Turbos and ion cannons" when arriving at Mon Calamari. Second, one frame of the comic shows muzzle flashes on the E-wing's wingroot, consistent with the comic's representation of weapons fire. These are clearly not the wing guns, which are well outboard at the tip of each wing. It's also not coming from the ovoid structures in the nose. No other weaponry is ever indicated in this position. With the laser cannon and torpedoes ruled out, this leaves only the ion cannon.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Reschke

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2008, 11:54:50 AM »
To go back to the original statement. I don't think this upcoming movie is made for the 20, 30 and 40 year old SW nerds who grew up watching and reading anything we could about the movies, etc... In my opinion this movie is made for kids between the ages of 3 or 4 years old and 12 who may not have seen the original Star Wars movies. So unless you fit that demographic then you really shouldn't bang on a company for trying to do what we all see; they are trying to milk the money out of the parents in order to try and hook another generation of fans for the series in whatever form.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2008, 12:54:37 PM »
The problem is when said company lets their new imagining displace what came before. All you have to do is look around at the derivative products. Nick Gilliard's Jedi Saber Dance has become the status-quo depiction of lightsaber combat (every game since the Prequels bowed have made use of the ludicrously impractical flashy twirling over the grounded style of the original trilogy) makes for a good example of this. The duels in the prequels were so BORING, bordering on laughable (flying and flipping Yoda in Episodes II and III was just TOO MUCH). They lost the impact and drama of the duels of the original trilogy.

What made the fight between Obi-Wan and Vader such an intense experience in the original film was the mind games underneath: Here was master and student facing each other again, with the master knowing his end has come but having to fight this one last battle.

What made Luke's fight against Vader in Empire so dramatic was not just the unexpected revelation of Luke's origins, but the sheer menace of Vader and his cat-like cruelty as he toyed with Luke throughout their encounter, trying to find that one point where Luke's control of his fear and hatred would at last give way and in doing so he would fall, and Luke's final resolution that he would rather die than follow that path.

What made the final duel in Return of the Jedi between father and son so powerful was the emotional current running underneath: Luke's unwillingness to strike down his own father and his desire to forgive. Vader's own internal conflict, torn between the master he hated and feared, and his love for his son, the last remnant of the good man he had once been. Of all the duels this was my favorite because of how much was at stake. Luke and Vader weren't just fighting for their lives, they were fighting for their SOULS, each trying to turn the other: Luke to redeem, Vader to corrupt, and that it was LOVE--Luke's love for his father, for his sister, and for his friends that threw back the Dark Side and brought Anakin back into the light.

This was MISSING from the Prequels. The fights here were little more than a matter of good guys and bad guys fighting because that's what good guys and bad guys should do. Whether Lucas intended to or not, the Original Trilogy brought an emotional and spiritual depth to Science Fiction that has rarely been seen. This is the TRUE heart of Star Wars, and its absence from the Prequels left a void that made it all seem stiff and automatic. The soul is gone, and all that was left of it was a shell.

It's a sad, sad realization that THIS is the legacy LucasFilm wishes to push to younger generations.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Yeager

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2008, 01:16:40 PM »
In my opinion this movie is made for kids between the ages of 3 or 4 years old and 12 who may not have seen the original Star Wars movies.
You could be right...However, at 40+ Im sure I'll end up watching it sooner or later and will probably get a kick out of it.

Im not totally anal about this stuff.  I easily entertained :)
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Offline Reschke

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2008, 03:45:51 PM »
You could be right...However, at 40+ Im sure I'll end up watching it sooner or later and will probably get a kick out of it.

Im not totally anal about this stuff.  I easily entertained :)

I am easily entertained as well and I will be taking my 5 year old and 11 year old to go see it. Heck I took my oldest son to see the re-release of Episodes 4,5 and 6 before Episode 1 came out and he was only a tiny little baby not even a year old yet at that time in 1997.
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Offline botkins

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2008, 07:12:23 PM »
ahh i never get tired of that lightsaber woosh
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Lucas REALLY ****ed up this time...
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2008, 02:45:24 AM »
ahh i never get tired of that lightsaber woosh

lol. The ORIGINAL lightsaber toys that came out caught that one pretty well. I have an original Luke one and an original Vader. Not in their original boxes of course, im not that much of a nerd. I played with them as a kid when my parents finally thought it was safe to give them to me without me instantly destroying them, lol.