Author Topic: US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum (Read 3020 times)

Wotan · « **Reply #30 on:** September 23, 2004, 10:32:00 PM »

Karnak none I have read ever siad there were no Hispano HE rounds.

In 1942 the SAPI was introduced, and that plus the HEI became the standard loading for RAF fighters thereafter. Everyone knows this.

From Tony Williams site its just 8% HE material by weight where by the MGFF/M contains 22%.

He goes on to mention:

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If we compare the values with the few data known from ballistic tests, we have some indications that the factors assumed in the calculations are realistic. The 20x80RB M-Geschoss and the 20x110 (Hispano) HE were rated as about equal; the greater blast effect of the M-Geschoss was countered by the greater penetration and kinetic damage inflicted by the Hispano. They do indeed emerge with similar scores.

What folks talk about is the disparity in lethality between the hispano and other 20 mm HE rounds in AH.

Folks have pointed out that the RAF didnt load AP Hispano rounds. Its SAPI round could penetrate 25mm (IIRC) of armor yet it flies around the main blowing mbts with ease.

The Hispano in AH is a hybrid HE/AP. Its high velocity at impact gives in far greater lethality it AH then the MGFF/M or the ShVak or the mg151/20.

I am sure the 109s use a hybrid round as well. Does it account for accurate belting and is the M-Geschoss if accounted for? The Hispano is a far more lethal round in AH then any other 20mm round.

Karnak · « **Reply #31 on:** September 24, 2004, 10:07:46 AM »

Wotan,

I'm not talking about AH. I am well aware of the issues in AH.

I was talking about reality,

Crumpp · « **Reply #32 on:** September 24, 2004, 02:31:38 PM »

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I'm not talking about AH. I am well aware of the issues in AH.

There lies the confusion. WE are talking about AH!

Think I have some belting information for the LW. Let me dig around and see. Karnack, You have any info on the RAF?

Crumpp

GScholz · « **Reply #33 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:04:25 PM »

IIRC the MG151/20 was belted with 1xAP, 1xHE-T, and 2xHE-M. So every other round would be a HE-M, while every fourth round would be AP and HE-T respectively.

GODO · « **Reply #34 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:23:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
IIRC the MG151/20 was belted with 1xAP, 1xHE-T, and 2xHE-M. So every other round would be a HE-M, while every fourth round would be AP and HE-T respectively.

Dont think any mine is included in AH, nor every other round neither every 1000. If they are, HTC forgot to put any explosive in them.

Crumpp · « **Reply #35 on:** September 24, 2004, 03:24:49 PM »

Found it and Gscholtz beat me to it.

I am not the most internet savy guy on the block...WTH does IIRC mean? Seen it used many times before.

Crumpp

Wotan · « **Reply #36 on:** September 24, 2004, 04:21:28 PM »

if I recall correctly

Wotan · « **Reply #37 on:** September 24, 2004, 04:57:19 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
Wotan,

I'm not talking about AH. I am well aware of the issues in AH.

I was talking about reality,

What? Then why do you keep saying:

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This constant talking down of the Hispano's lethality is really weird.

and

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Too often they Hispano/M2 gets painted as firing some AP round that would just punch a little hole and not do any real damage like the German rounds.

Folks on this forum (I assume this who you are referring to by using "they") say the opposite. That RAF hisso's weren't loaded with AP and that the amount of HE was less then what was carried in other rounds like the MGFF/M. All the statements and threads that I have read on this subject and in this forum relate to game performance, not in "real life".

As I said we all know Hisso HE rounds were used. The dispute comes from the disparity between the Hispano and all other 20mm HE / Mine rounds in AH.

They aren't referred to as Hizookas for nothing.

The benefits of the Hispano are its mv which increases hit probrability at convergence and its flatter trajectory.

In AH its benefits are range and greater lethality. This is what folks talk about on this forum when the speak of the hisapno.

GODO · « **Reply #38 on:** September 24, 2004, 06:08:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
I was talking about reality,

Me too.

Crumpp · « **Reply #39 on:** September 24, 2004, 06:14:20 PM »

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if I recall correctly

Thanks Wotan.

GODO did you get those charts on the FW-190A3 I sent you?

Crumpp

GODO · « **Reply #40 on:** September 24, 2004, 07:31:16 PM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp
Thanks Wotan.

GODO did you get those charts on the FW-190A3 I sent you?

Crumpp

I'll check for these in 30 mins. Thanks Crumpp.

Crumpp · « **Reply #41 on:** September 24, 2004, 07:58:05 PM »

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The benefits of the Hispano are its mv which increases hit probrability at convergence and its flatter trajectory.

Anybody got a convergence chart for the Hispano. I have a ballistics chart for the FW-190A6 bis A9. The MG151's are fairly flat shooting 20mm. Muzzle velocity does not necessarily mean better trajectory or range. Lots of other factors can effect it.

Crumpp

Wotan · « **Reply #42 on:** September 24, 2004, 08:01:38 PM »

Tony Williams has stated on the forum that because of the size of the hispsano the Spit had to go with 300yrds. This was an issue for the RAF as they wanted 200.

Serach for his reply you will find it.

Wotan · « **Reply #43 on:** September 24, 2004, 08:05:09 PM »

Just fyi

Here's a limk to an RAF Gunnery Training manual

http://www.darts-page.us/files/gunnery01.htm

Crumpp · « **Reply #44 on:** September 24, 2004, 08:32:26 PM »

Thanks Wotan!

Couldn't really tell what the convergence was set too from that. Based on some of the guns solutions from that last page I would be very surprised if the Hispano had a flat trajectory.

Crumpp