Author Topic: US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum  (Read 2885 times)

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2004, 10:58:00 AM »
Another point to consider though, is that unlike Tony's theoretical electric Hispano, the Hispano Mk I, II and V all had much bulkier ammo than did the MG151/20.  A lot more ammo  for the MG151/20 can be carried in the same space that the Spitfire's 120 rounds are carried.

Given the weight and ammo differences I might very well prefer an MG151/20 armed Spitfire to a Hispano Mk II armed Spitfire.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GODO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2004, 02:31:23 PM »
Tony, I would agree about the straight ray weapon as long as you can aim that accurately. So, IMO, the german aproach was far better with the exception of P38. Do you have stable guns with not so flat trajectory and not so high firing rate? No problem as far as you can use an accurately calibrated and marked gunsight you will be able to score accurate hits easily. Do you have flat trajectory high ROF guns but with high dispersion? You will be lucky scoring a single hit, at least at the spot were you were aiming.

In WW2 it was really important to be able to score accurate hits with the very first burst, most kills were achieved bouncing unaware planes, and you dont want to spray, alert the enemy with few scattered pings and risk a real fight.

I've seen lots of 109 guncam films were the 109 pilot aproach, aim, fire a pair of accurate shots, and then smoke, fire and bye bye spit or hurricane engine. if the gun, due the mountings, become a treacherous tool, ballistics will become secondary.

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2004, 02:38:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Given the weight and ammo differences I might very well prefer an MG151/20 armed Spitfire to a Hispano Mk II armed Spitfire.


Oh I know I would. If you throw out the Hisso's and .50 cals you could put four MG151/20's in their place for only 10 kg extra weight.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GODO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2004, 02:40:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
but the Spit package is easier to hit with at longer ranges.


Unless longer ranges mean 1000 yards, more than probably the effect would be just the opposite. I would like to see the cone of dispersion of hispanos mounted in spit wings firing at 500m compared with the cone of dispersion of the 151/20 at the 109 hub.

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2004, 06:40:43 PM »
Dispersion isn't a bad thing, you would want some dispersion, but not too much. Just enough to make a nice shotgun pattern the size of a fighter at 300 yards. Guns with no dispersion at all would be very difficult to aim, like shooting at clay pigeons with a rifle.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GODO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2004, 06:53:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Dispersion isn't a bad thing,


It will depend on your gunnery skills. For lousy aimers, the more the dispersion the better, but probably they'll get few lucky and scattered pings causing little or no damage and alerting the enemy even with the very first tracer missing the target. On the other hand, if you are able to aim accurately and land the very first burst over a critical area (engine, pilot, wing root), you will get the kill. 109s were not for lousy aimers, you have a single gun and you cant count on dispersion to get some hit. But, if you have guns with little dispersion and you want more, just use a bit of rudders and joy and you will build your custom dispersion pattern even having a single gun.

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2004, 08:01:45 PM »
The vast majority of WWII pilots were "lousy aimers", and a single 20mm shell can down a fighter. Nowadays air-air and AAA autocannons are designed with a rather high dispersion on purpose to increase hit probability.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2004, 09:57:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Oh I know I would. If you throw out the Hisso's and .50 cals you could put four MG151/20's in their place for only 10 kg extra weight.


Berezin B20 only weighed 25kg while MG151 was 42kg and still gave same or higher rpm and muzzle velocity...

So you could prolly fit 6 of those or more for less weight.  In fact I think the B20 weigs less than US bowning 50cal. Imagine a mustang with 6 20mm cannon, or a thunderbolt with 8.. :)

Offline Tony Williams

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
      • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #83 on: September 29, 2004, 02:11:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
Tony, I would agree about the straight ray weapon as long as you can aim that accurately. So, IMO, the german aproach was far better with the exception of P38. Do you have stable guns with not so flat trajectory and not so high firing rate? No problem as far as you can use an accurately calibrated and marked gunsight you will be able to score accurate hits easily. Do you have flat trajectory high ROF guns but with high dispersion? You will be lucky scoring a single hit, at least at the spot were you were aiming.

In WW2 it was really important to be able to score accurate hits with the very first burst, most kills were achieved bouncing unaware planes, and you dont want to spray, alert the enemy with few scattered pings and risk a real fight.

I've seen lots of 109 guncam films were the 109 pilot aproach, aim, fire a pair of accurate shots, and then smoke, fire and bye bye spit or hurricane engine. if the gun, due the mountings, become a treacherous tool, ballistics will become secondary.


I agree that centrally-mounted guns were superior (so did many RAF officers) but that was because they avoided the harmonisation problem of wing guns, not because they had less dispersion. Or to put it another way, their dispersion was a gradual spread from the centre, not a constantly-varying 'figure of eight'.

Some dispersion is a Good Thing because it will increase the hit probability, provided that:

1. The shot pattern of a typical burst of fire is still dense enough to guarantee hits against anything caught 'in the cone' at normal combat ranges;

2. Each hit is powerful enough to be effective - i.e. from a cannon, not an MG.

The first gunsight which gave a reasonable chance of scoring hits in deflection shooting was the gyro sight which didn't enter service until 1944. Until then - and still to some extent after then - a high muzzle velocity was a great aid in scoring hits in such circumstances, and even then only the very best shooters could do it.

Of the various sources of inaccuracy to affect WW2 aircraft guns, by far the most significant (leaving aside pilot skill) was the aircraft itself - it vibrated, shook, skidded across the sky and was generally very difficult to keep aimed at the target for more than a second or so. That's partly why most experienced pilots liked to get in real close before opening fire - all sources of error were minimised then.

Rather OT but - Hurricanes and Spitfires could have carried four 20mm MG-FF cannon in the BoB instead of eight .303s, for much the same weight. They could have been much more effective as a result - discuss!

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #84 on: September 29, 2004, 05:16:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Berezin B20 only weighed 25kg while MG151 was 42kg and still gave same or higher rpm and muzzle velocity...

So you could prolly fit 6 of those or more for less weight.  In fact I think the B20 weigs less than US bowning 50cal. Imagine a mustang with 6 20mm cannon, or a thunderbolt with 8.. :)


Yes the B20 was probably the best 20mm cannon of the war, however it was also a very late war design. AFAIK the ShVak and B20 have a slightly lower muzzle velocity than the MG151/20.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #85 on: September 29, 2004, 05:57:08 AM »
The best cannon ever for WW2 figters.. Too bad it came 40 years later.. :(

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/cannons/gsh301.htm

Tony isnt this one ideal as an engine cannon?

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #86 on: September 29, 2004, 06:13:44 AM »
The GSh-301 is probably the best aircraft gun ever made. It's only drawback is that it has a low barrel life.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #87 on: September 29, 2004, 06:25:31 AM »
Tony what kind of cannon is it, what system is it, how does it operate?  Can you give us more insight into the GSh-301?

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #88 on: September 29, 2004, 06:36:33 AM »
The berezin had a rof of 800rpm same as the shvak. The mg151 700-750rpm.

Offline Tony Williams

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 725
      • http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
US ww2 issue 20mm HE VS: 55gal. empty oil drum
« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2004, 07:30:52 AM »
The GSh-301 is fascinating because it's such an 'old-fashioned' design, a short-recoil type similar in principle to (although very different in detail from) the .50 Browning. The difference is that the design has been highly developed and refined to extract the maximum possible rate of fire - between 1,500-1,800 rpm - despite firing a very powerful 30x164 cartridge.

To put it in WW2 persepctive, it is only fractionally heavier than the MG 151/20, yet has the hitting power of FOUR 30mm MK 103 cannon (which weighed about twelve times as much). A Bf 109 with one of those firing through the prop hub would be....impressive.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum