Stall fighting

[dedalos]

I think I am getting pretty good at getting the bad guy to stal first most of the time. The question I have is, what happens when we both get locked in a situation where we are climing so slow that I cannot loop over to get my guns on him, and he does not have the power to pull the nose up to shoot me.  He can keep up with me at d200 or d400 but cant get his guns on me, nor can I (or don;t know how) get my guns on him.  Who wins then?  other than climing for ever, what alternatives are there?   Everything I tried so far lead to my death exept one time, but that was because he paniced and tried to run.  Had he stayed with it I would have been dead.

Thank you

[Waffle]

tight climbing turn?

[jaxxo]

given same plane type I would try to get as much e as poss then give up a tail shot to him for an angle on the reverse..if he misses chances are he will try and correct his aim at least a little bit..giving you an e advantage due to his deflection. if he stays on your 6 he has a big adv obviously..take some chances IMHO

[dedalos]

Well, the problem is I will only do this against a plane that turns better.  Usually I will be in a G2 or Tiffi having a spit or nik on my tail.  If I don;t execute right and we end up locked up like that we are doing something like 150 or less with full flaps just to stay floating.  Any turn at that point will result to the turning plane getting the shot.  Giving a shot to him on my tail at d200 will most likely have the same outcome.  I am looking for a way to get a shot at him.  I can always dive out of troble and try again but since I have him nice and slow, i was wandering if there is a way to get him.

[acetnt367th]

Originally posted by dedalos
I think I am getting pretty good at getting the bad guy to stal first most of the time. The question I have is, what happens when we both get locked in a situation where we are climing so slow that I cannot loop over to get my guns on him, and he does not have the power to pull the nose up to shoot me.  He can keep up with me at d200 or d400 but cant get his guns on me, nor can I (or don;t know how) get my guns on him.  Who wins then?  other than climing for ever, what alternatives are there?   Everything I tried so far lead to my death exept one time, but that was because he paniced and tried to run.  Had he stayed with it I would have been dead.

Thank you

Pull back canopy, pull out sidearm, fire at enemy starsky and hutch style......



Otherwise try very hard not to get into the low e state in the first place (at least not in the front position)

[Kweassa]

Essentially, in that case both of you are locked in a state with almost no kinetic energy and some potential energy.

 In this case, clearly the failure is on part of the higher plane to attempt a roping - as the E advantage he is in is only worth about 200~400 yards of altitude higher than the enemy below.

 Things start to look bad for the higher plane, if the lower plane is something like a Spitfire which can start maneuvering again even with small speed gain, and the higher plane is something like a Fw190 that needs a considerable margin of speed to reclaim to start maneuvering again.

 The options for the higher planes are:

1) If the higher plane is a better climbing plane, then he may try to keep that state and slowly but firmly outclimb the lower plane.

2) If the higher plane is a better accelerating plane, he may risk falling under a temporary gun solution and level out, to accelerate and further distance between him and the lower plane.

3) If the higher plane is a better diving plane, he should keep a careful watch on the direction of the nose of the enemy below - the slight altitude advantage might provide a "head start" for him and enable him to get away in a powerdive.

4) If the higher plane has better maneuverability at high speeds, he could nose down, and urge the lower plane to follow him, and then try a quick reversal or escape, during the downward flight utilizing his superior high-speed maneuverability.

5) If the lower plane accelerates, maneuvers, climbs, dives better than the higher plane, then the higher plane is screwed.

[eilif]

if you were in a p38 you would have already killed him:)  either spin it around with dual rudders or kill one eng and she will spin around real fast!

the trick with roping is to come about just before they fall.

[Morpheus]

I think the answer to this is pretty simple. Atleast in my own head it looks simple and works for me time after time.

When I see someone who is hanging with me just enough to be a threat at the top of my zoom i'll start to take my climb into a tight spiral so as to force him to want to follow me around with his nose. What this virtually does is bring his nose over the axis of his climb and your nose is also over or close to being over so when you stall he will stall. and you will be able to fall back on his 6. Of course you need to be able to read energy states of other planes well enough to tell when and when not to pull a con up like this. Its close but it gets the job done when times are tight.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by eilif
if you were in a p38 you would have already killed him:)  either spin it around with dual rudders or kill one eng and she will spin around real fast!

the trick with roping is to come about just before they fall.

I'd be real careful in recomending to someone to kill an engine in a 38 at the top of a zoom. If you dont know what you are doing now in AH2 with the New FM the thing will turn into a helicopter and fall to the earth. The 38 still has a weak spot that when you hit it and get it into a bad stall it is very hard to get out of.

Altho... They have cleaned it up a bit.

[Mugzeee]

The simple answer is that there is very little in the way of reversal in such a situation. As you have already answered your own question. Both planes are stalled. The observations laid out here are fine. I like Acent's suggestion best. Short sweet and to the point.
BTW i have been in that situation way more times than i could ever count. And wondering (How i can Flop over and get the shot?) btw...when im the other guy im thinking... (If i just keep him stalled he cant flop.)
This has got to be the funest fighting a sim offers. I LOVE IT.
But in a high trafic arena...Prepare to be picked.

[dedalos]

Thanks everyone.  

[dedalos]

Originally posted by MoRphEuS
I'd be real careful in recomending to someone to kill an engine in a 38 at the top of a zoom. If you dont know what you are doing now in AH2 with the New FM the thing will turn into a helicopter and fall to the earth. The 38 still has a weak spot that when you hit it and get it into a bad stall it is very hard to get out of.

Altho... They have cleaned it up a bit.

Yep. Everytime one of my engines was dead and I was too slow at the top of the loop, I floated nicely to the grownd.

[Murdr]

lol, that situation sounds very familer.  In the 38 this sit shouldnt really be a problem.  With full flaps, you can still do extended bursts of about roc 1.5-2 at about 105 mph, and I find that with the added lift of the flaps, and no torque I can bank at slightly more of a degree than most other planes at that speed.  So in my experience, a mild climbing turn right usually results in the other plane trying to disengage when they cant bank hard enough to follow the turn.

On a 1 engine 38 the only way out of a stall spin like that is to shut the remaining engine off until you can recover.

[FiLtH]

Chop throttle

[PK1Mw]

Dedalos, I noticed you said you fly the tiffy. When I rope in a tiffy, I don't just zoom climb, I spiral up like Morph said. They try to follow you with their nose, and I makes them lose speed even faster. Only plane I find hard to rope is La7 because it has an extrememly low stall, plus it accels like a rocket. In this case it may take a few times of trying to rope him in order for it to work.