Author Topic: 109 G-10 tip stall??????  (Read 1665 times)

Offline 1K3

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2004, 08:45:30 PM »
In AH world, 190s can still land even if 1/2 wing missing by using correct trimming... but your speed is around 300km/h when approaching the runway. You have 50/50 chance of ditching on the runway or the dirt:D

storch

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2004, 08:57:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
anyone here fly 109G-10 in Il-2/Il-2FB? does it stall like that in Il-2/Il-2FB?


In IL-2 all the flight models seem about equal to me.

Offline Glasses

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2004, 10:58:02 PM »
Hey it's a LW thread I should at least make a cameo :D

Offline Kweassa

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2004, 03:55:10 AM »
Quote
That is defineately an Allied vs Axis thing, hmmm? All Allied aircraft do one thing and all Axis aircraft the other?


 Well, that's the point of one person on this thread. However, not for me.

 It could be simply a mistake, overlook, low correction priorities, or in the worst case, "nothing wrong". I'm willing to accept all of the possibilities or potential explanations.

 However, if this turns out to be 'nothing wrong', then its something that disturbs our traditional looks and views on the aircombat between the P-47/P-51 vs 109s/190s.

 IIRC, the traditional views was that at medium high speeds the 51 and the 47 easily matched 109s and 190s in maneuvering. At low speeds the 51s and 47s would have an edge in stability, but the 109s and 190s would have the edge in overall maneuverability.

 In the end the outcome of an all-out stall fight would be a 109 would more or less easily outturn/outmaneuver a P-47, and would have to work hard to do the same to a P-51. A 190 would be deadlock with a P-47, and be disadvantaged against a P-51.

 At least to the extent of my skills and experience of AH2, a 109 is at deadlocks with a P-47 and outmaneuvered hardily by the P-51.

 The 190 is no match at all for both the P-47 and P-51, and any engagement that falls under 250mph and the P-47 or the P-51 would decisively outturn it within two circles.

 It could be pilot factor - since I'm not a top shape pilot. But then again, not all the P-47 and P-51 pilots I meet are the topdogs of MA.

Offline Crumpp

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2004, 08:20:08 AM »



These are just the conclusions from that Tactical Trial.  The P47 was a P47D-4 which is a P47D11 without the performance robbing ordinance hardpoints.

The FW-190 is an FW-190A5 which was repaired from a crashlanded plane.

Crumpp

Offline Urchin

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2004, 09:11:53 AM »
Gotta say I haven't noticed it, if anything the 109/190 seem better in Ah2, with the exception of the Dora.  It seems markedly less manueverable, but I never was a real big fan of the Dora anyway.

Offline Crumpp

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2004, 09:23:07 AM »
The FW-190A5:



The engine fouled plugs when dropped to an idle and simply quit at altitude.  The service ceiling of the Aircraft was never reached.

Interesting note is the aileron vibration and reversal in the turns.  This is not a flight characteristic of the FW-190A series. The only other place this is mentioned is a Rechlin test flight between the FW-190A2 vs. Bf-109F4.

The FW-190A5 was a ground attack version, which they attempted to ballast to simulate a fighter version.  



The Rechlin comment:

http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/aleirons.jpg

All of the FW-190A pilots I have interviewed have made the same interesting comments:

1.  The FW-190A5 was the worst performing FW-190A.  It gained weight but did not gain any power until after a short time period in which the Spitfire did have a measure level speed superiority.  Adjustments were made to the Kommandogerat and the fuel injection system on the BMW-801D2 which restored it's level speed advantage.

2.  The FW-190A8 was the most nimble version of the FW-190A.
CG adjustments, Horsepower increase, control surface changes and a more efficient propeller are the reason.

3.  They used angle tactics against allied fighter (including VVS) every fighter except the Spitfire.

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2004, 09:27:48 AM »
Oh,


The tactical trials for the FW-190A5 vs P51 is a P51B not the P51D which had a worse turn radius.

Additionally the FW-190D outturned the FW-190A.

I will dig up the documentation.

Crumpp

Offline phookat

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Re: 109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2004, 10:08:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
It seems that the 109 G-10 is tip stalling like the 190 erroneously does.  has anyone else noticed this?


Yes, very much so.  The 109's supposed to have a gentle stall, but I notice a lot of roll instability while turning.

Offline phookat

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2004, 10:09:29 AM »
Great info Crumpp!  Did you send this stuff to HTC?

storch

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2004, 11:28:25 AM »
I was in a turn fight at low altitude with a P51 and a P47 and the only reason they didn't kill me is because they probably didn't know their rides very well and were probably fairly new.  As it was I had a hard time evadind and knocking them down.  I'll agree with Kweassa that if the problem isn't in the LW AC then it's with the Allied.  I believe Crumpp has forwarded every bit of that info to HTC some months ago and pyro responded on these boards that he would "look into it".  Maybe it will be looked into in two weeks ;)

Offline GODO

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2004, 12:13:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Additionally the FW-190D outturned the FW-190A.


Similar weight to 190A8 plus 300 extra hp. I expect at least similar turning characteristics, actual D9 is far worse turner than A8.

Offline Crumpp

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2004, 12:15:25 PM »
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Similar weight to 190A8 plus 300 extra hp. I expect at least similar turning characteristics,


Yep, and that extra horsepower works a long way to improving turning performance.

Crumpp

edited for clarity....
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 04:52:39 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Kweassa

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2004, 03:47:36 PM »
I think Godo meant that the AH2 D-9, "actually maneuvers worse than the A-8". If that be the case than I agree with him.

Offline GODO

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109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2004, 04:17:56 PM »
Yep, I meant current AH D9.