Author Topic: 109 G-10 tip stall??????  (Read 1663 times)

storch

  • Guest
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« on: September 25, 2004, 10:39:11 AM »
It seems that the 109 G-10 is tip stalling like the 190 erroneously does.  has anyone else noticed this?

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2004, 01:21:43 PM »
What's a 'tip stall'?

 If you by any chance mean the serious destabilization of the roll axis during harsh maneuvering, then I definately agree.

 As it is, getting the plane to slow down to near 100mph without an upward movement (that gains alt) during a turn maneuver, is incredibly hard in all of the 109s.  In other words, getting the plane to turn harsh enough to drain speed down to the stall speed, is very hard, because already at 180mph or so, even with first or second notch of flaps applied, the plane is seriously destabilized.

 The C.202 and C.205 suffers almost exactly the same amount of difficulty during turns.

 All other planes - including the Lavochkins or Spitfires... Zeros and Hurris even... (though much less than the 109s or Macchis), suffer more difficulties in a harsh turn compared to AH1.

 As it is the only planes I haven't seen suffer this problem to such a noticeable extent, is the P-47s, P-51s, F4Us and P-38s. The P-38s I can understand. The P-47s, P-51s, and F4Us; taking the flap use into consideration, still, seems way too stable.

 These planes don't 'marginally outturn' 109s and 190s - they 'decisively, and easily' outturn them.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 01:23:44 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2004, 01:50:29 PM »
Quote
These planes don't 'marginally outturn' 109s and 190s - they 'decisively, and easily' outturn them.



I was thinking the exact same thing myself.

Except the wording from the actual tactical trials is:

"Little to choose between the two with the Mustang having a slight advantage" and "Turning is NOT recommended except for immediate defense".

AND

The FW-190A5 being flown by a USAAF pilot with FIVE hours in the 190!
I am sure he was expert by then at figuring out the edge of the 190's envelope.  With all the warning the bird gave...

:(

Looking forward to Pyro's redoing the FM.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 07:34:46 PM by Crumpp »

storch

  • Guest
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2004, 02:21:52 PM »
A tip stall is just what it sounds to be.  In a high angle of attack and banking the wing tip may stall first causing the aircraft to enter into a violent spin.  It is happening in the 109 G-6 and G-10.  The thing is that it is occurring in mild climbing turns.  These are flight characteristics which were not present in ANY LW aircraft.  Plainly the LW aircraft are very poorly modeled in this game.  If you want the allied aircraft to have all of the advantages then simply disarm the LW completely.  Why pretend any longer?   :D

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2004, 04:08:15 PM »
I wouldn't go so far as doing the 'overmodelled' claim - as HT is really sensitive about those issues.

 However, from your description, I immediately recognize it, and agree to an extent.

 I'm a devout fan of the 109s - I use all the Gustav models and the Friederich(Emil's really too slow for MA purposes..) almost exclusively in AH. The first, immediate things I've noticed in the differences between AH1 and AH2 was that the 109s were having problems in turning, and the P-51s and P-47s were basically 'out-of-reach' for me in whatever 109 I choose to fly them against.

 I believe I'm the first one who brought it up in the boards(which ofcourse, by no means implies that I'm the only one who realizes it), and here is a thread in the help section where in deep frustration I've spilled what I felt:

Favorite Moves in a 109?

 I'm pretty sure this is what you're getting at too, storch.


 .....
 
 In the thread, is some comments by bozon;

Quote
clouds, I am aware of the instabilities the 109 suffers at low speeds (spit 9 developed some too). IMO it's most other planes that suffer too little of this. Some planes don't seem to have any torque at all and don't fear a spin. If it was up to me I'd give all the planes the mossie's new flat spin.


 This part I wholely agree. Frankly, most of the planes, more or less, have received some kind of 'character quirks' that makes maneverig harder than it was than AH1 - and I like that part.

 In AH1, having a 'better turning ability' usually meant simply the harder you pull, the quicker you outturned the opponent. It also meant that some planes were more 'resilient' to stall conditions and side factors such as torque.

 However, in AH2, I've experienced a lot of things.

* The Zekes and Hurris would violently stall out if you just yanked the stick like you'd have done in AH1.

* When engaged in a turn fight which none started out behind the other, in an equal conditions/one circle merge, the SpitV can't just simply outturn the N1K2 by pulling the stick.

* The Spit9 has grown issues in regards to stability if you pull hard while applying sudden rudder.

* Even the "Lgays" suffer violent snap rolls if you apply sudden, harsh stick input - particularly when the fuel tank is full.

 Almost all planes have distinct reactions to harsh conditions, particularly with hars turns - except the P-51s and P-47s, and F4Us.

 There's basically almost no way to follow a P-47 in a rolling scissors - a 109 or 190 in AH2 just can't follow that angle. If I should win that battle, it is most likely because I broke off from that engagement, and used the climb and accel advantage to 'bugger out' and then gain an alt advantage again and again.
 
 Seems like those three planes in particular, have the stabilization effect of the flaps set too high - or the flap effectiveness of other planes is much too low.

 I personally don't mind the difficulty of managing the 109 at such speeds, but I do mind the fact that I can't beat a La-7 in a 109G-10 which I've used for years, engaged in a low speed maneuvering fight.

 The really frustrating thing is, I can beat the same guy in the same La-7 with flying colors in a P-51D, or even a P-47D, which I have almost no flight time in. Damn!

 I mean, is it really supposed to be this hard to outmaneuver a P-47D with a Bf109G-6? A 5.6 ton with 2000hp, against a plane that weighs only 50%, but has 75% of the engine power?

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2004, 04:55:36 PM »
Yea something is off with the US planes, especially the 47...

storch

  • Guest
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2004, 05:35:16 PM »
Well I can't help about HTC's "sensitivity" issues.  my suggestion to the "sensitive" prima donnas would be to buck up.  It has to be hurting them in the pocket book.  I have very little tolerance for the "we know better" crowd which HTC seems to be.  There is a problem.  That they choose not to address it is one thing.  It's a totally diiffferent thing to to tell me, a customer that pays his account up three months in advance most times to consider HTC's feelings.  The modelling is off and they need to fix it to the satisfaction of the axis players.  I don't mean to the exclusive favor of the axis players but to the conditions which existed in the field as closely as possible.  The modelling is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.  You have a very well read playing field here the amount of sloppiness that is currently the state of these models is unacceptable.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 05:37:45 PM by storch »

Offline GODO

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 555
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s/fw190.htm
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2004, 05:59:35 PM »
I tested 190A5, 109G10, P47D40 and P47D25, all of them on wep, 50% fuel, flaps up and sea level. I noted G and speed for stable substained turns with no "tip stalls" for several 360 degree turns.

190A5 and 109G10 got 2.6G at 175mph.
P47D40 and P47D25 got 2.1G at 150 mph.

Offline vorticon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7935
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2004, 06:04:59 PM »
hmm...i havent been having any trouble turning in a g-2, actually ive been surviving turn fights with spits quite a bit (they always seem to switch direction just as i start stalling)


ive noticed that the g2 has better accel and handling and on the deck top speed than the g-6 and the g-10...

storch

  • Guest
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2004, 06:20:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
I tested 190A5, 109G10, P47D40 and P47D25, all of them on wep, 50% fuel, flaps up and sea level. I noted G and speed for stable substained turns with no "tip stalls" for several 360 degree turns.

190A5 and 109G10 got 2.6G at 175mph.
P47D40 and P47D25 got 2.1G at 150 mph.


Amazing!!!!!!! it happens to me every fight

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2004, 06:55:19 PM »
Ah yes, the old Axis == German & German == undermodeled whine.

It'd been awhile since I'd seen it.  Brings back memories.


EDIT:

OK, clarification.  I agree that there is stuff that doesn't seem right, particularly in the changes to many of the American aircraft's performance with flaps deployed.

What I don't agree with is the whole "Axis is being intentionally screwed" rhetoric that is taking off in this thread.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 07:03:51 PM by Karnak »
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

storch

  • Guest
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2004, 08:19:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Ah yes, the old Axis == German & German == undermodeled whine.

It'd been awhile since I'd seen it.  Brings back memories.


EDIT:

OK, clarification.  I agree that there is stuff that doesn't seem right, particularly in the changes to many of the American aircraft's performance with flaps deployed.

What I don't agree with is the whole "Axis is being intentionally screwed" rhetoric that is taking off in this thread.


I'll beg your pardon but lose a 1/2 wing in any axis airplane and the fight is over and the axis player is dead.  Lose 1/2 wing in an allied plane and it can now out run you easily.  It just happened to me again in the CT.  I shot 1/2 of a wing off of Smokin SS in a P38 and he just out ran my 109 G10.  What would you conclude when all the cards are stacked against the axis player?  I've only been playing for 17 months so these "old" whines are a revelation to me.  And if a new generation of player comes to the same conclusion what would that indicate?  It's sloppy and it's dishonest not address the issue and then have HTC come on here and just simply delete the message and at times ban the messenger.

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2004, 08:20:48 PM »
anyone here fly 109G-10 in Il-2/Il-2FB? does it stall like that in Il-2/Il-2FB?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 08:24:59 PM by 1K3 »

Offline TrueKill

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2004, 08:22:50 PM »
testing it doesnt really do anything i fly LW 95% of the time and yes most 109 190 and the 110 start to wanna stall at anything under 180mph and the 110G2 is messed up im turning with a p51 full flaps and just put in a little rudder and BOOOM flat stall spin HTC needs to fix the LW A/C cuz they are messed up.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
109 G-10 tip stall??????
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2004, 08:28:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
I'll beg your pardon but lose a 1/2 wing in any axis airplane and the fight is over and the axis player is dead.  Lose 1/2 wing in an allied plane and it can now out run you easily.  It just happened to me again in the CT.  I shot 1/2 of a wing off of Smokin SS in a P38 and he just out ran my 109 G10.  What would you conclude when all the cards are stacked against the axis player?  I've only been playing for 17 months so these "old" whines are a revelation to me.  And if a new generation of player comes to the same conclusion what would that indicate?  It's sloppy and it's dishonest not address the issue and then have HTC come on here and just simply delete the message and at times ban the messenger.

Yeah, sure.  Whatever.

That is defineately an Allied vs Axis thing, hmmm?  All Allied aircraft do one thing and all Axis aircraft the other?
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-