Suggestion - Balancing the Osty

[BigBen]

After once again succumbing to ostys all afternoon, I'd like to register my frustration with the recent proliferation of these vehicles & make some suggestions for better balancing the osty's role in AH.

I won't use the "u" word to describe the Osty, but I would suggest the following to somewhat limit the Ostwind's capabilities AND give a person a reasonable chance of killing it without being blown apart.

Suggestions:

1) Limit the field of fire.  It's an air defense vehicle, so set a minimum elevation level on the gun.  Maybe a maximum as well.  Anyone have historical data on the Osty's field of fire?

2) Weaken the armor of the turret, so the gun is easier to put out of action.  The CHOG shouldn't be the only plane capable of killing it!!

3) increase the RECOIL effect of cannon firing so that aim drifts when firing.

4) Reduce the ammo load or weaken the effect.  Once on or near the field, the Osty can trash it.. all by itself.  Unfortunately most Osty drivers prefer to just hit the VH, and then flak-vulch the planes trying to launch to destroy it. Maybe that's fun for the Osty driver, but it sucks for the people trying to defend their field.  A panzer can only kill 2 or 3 hangars at best and has very weak AA capability.  

The "new" beta map encourages even greater use of these vehicles due to the proximity of the spawn points to the A-fields.  Therefore, I believe this is an extremely important issue.

You are all free to disagree, and I am sure that many of you will, but in all honesty I think the Osty is a better ground-to-ground weapon than the Panzer in addition to being very difficult to kill from the air.  I have killed plenty, but only when they weren't simultaneously firing at me.  If the see you... and you are attacking.. you die. And if you do succeed in killing it, it simply respawns immediately in range of the field.  Not good for gameplay, IMHO.

If you don't like my comments, feel free to shoot me down either here or in the MA.  If you do agree, please say so... if this thread grows large maybe HTC will take note and put the Osty in its proper place!

Salute!
BigBen

[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-14-2000).]

[AKDejaVu]

If an osty gets to a field, takes down the vehicle hangar then procedes to vulch aircraft.. the problem isn't that the osty is uber.. its that the defenders weren't paying attention.

I've had sorties in an osty where I've taken down an entire field and then had a squadie capture it with an m3.  I've had other sorties were I'd aproach the base 4 or 5 times and promptly be killed.  The presence of aircraf was never the deciding factor of my survival.

I think some strategy needs to be adjusted in regards to the osty.  It is too good at taking down bases.  If it wasn't really used as such.. it shouldn't really be able to be used that way in the game.

Its lethality against aircraft, however, is about what I'd expect.  I don't see any need to change that aspect of it.

AKDejaVu

[BigBen]

A picture of the real thing  here:

 

In my opinion, the turret looks EXTREMELY vulnerable, even to MG fire.

re: armor, good info here: http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/Germany/Flakpanzer.htm

Of note, hull armor front was on average 80MM, but turret armor was only 25 MM and sides were 30MM.  

I will back off of my elevation suggestion, as the real thing had a range of -6 to +90 degrees.

I was interested to learn that only 43 Ostwinds were ever built! (see below)

More info:
3.7cm Flak auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV, Ostwind  
   
In August 1944 Generaloberst Guderian ordered 100 Flakpanzern consisting of a PzKpfw IV chassis (mainly Ausf. J) with a 3.7cm Flak 43 gun. The FlakPanzer IV "Ostwind" (East Wind) was similar to the Wirbelwind, which it was intended to replace, but carried the more powerful 3.7cm AA gun in a different turret. Only 43 were constructed.  


[This message has been edited by BigBen (edited 10-14-2000).]

[funked]

I got a sneaky feeling the traverse rate is screwy.

Also could 1000 rounds of ammo be stored in the turret?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-14-2000).]

[BigBen]

Funked,
You are probably right.  The gun had a hand traverse, so it would have taken MUCH longer to traverse the turret than it does in AH today.  We're seen pictures of the elevation and azimuth wheels on artillery in the past, so it should be obvious how slow traverse would be.  This might be the "balancing factor" that we need!  HT, Pyro, please take note! =)  
BB

[milnko]

To recap a post I made to  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005884.html                        

Originally posted by -lynx-:
Just think about the whole thing for a moment:

An enemy flakpanzer is sitting next to your airfield which is still fully operational (ie is capable of launching aircraft) and no-one from the ground troops has been despatched to get rid of it? <snip>

It is one thing when an airfield is being over-run by ground troops assault<snip>

I have to agree with this, an airfield should have a security force stationed on or nearby specifically<sp?> for dealing with enemy ground troops. That would be HISTORICALLY accurate.

How about this as a feature HTC could add:

Using the M-3 Troop Transport take off from the field find the Ostwind then highlight (*Note: use same highlight as "PAN" mode*) the target ya want the troops to attack, then deploy em to make thier way towards killin' that target. Instant Base Security Troops!

This could also be expanded to enable ya to also use the M-3 on enemy bases to attack any structure on that field as well.

I'm sure HTC could figure out how much damage a truck load of drunks to do, and how many it would take to destroy the various buildings.

Of course the whole time they are running to the target the M-3 hasta keep the building or vehicle highlighted so that the troops remain headed towards their assigned task.

       

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When I wanna say this; I throw a <S> instead!
CyberPilots have bigger Joysticks

<< MILENKO >>
ACES HIGH ASSASSINS Website
WB/AH ASSASSINS Website

[This message has been edited by milnko (edited 10-14-2000).]

[Thog]

Well, if the VH is gone, you have a problem.  My only suggestion (aside from any historically accurate changes, such as open turret issues) would be to add a second or third VH to major fields.  I mean, they already have 2 fighter hangers on the bigger ones.  Either that or place Vehical more friendly V-Bases withen easy range of a friendly airfield.

For what it's worth, when I saw that a friendly field was under attack by Osts and others, I took out a PzIV and whacked around 4 Ostwinds plus change.  Meanwhile I watched the very aircraft this thing was designed to shoot down die in flames trying to kill them.  I don't remember reading much about WWII pilots making attacks on mobile flak with anything but extreme trepidation.

Thog

[StSanta]

90 degre dives, pullups at d1.40 works quite fine for killing them.

I've killed some in JU88 at 3k making quite slow passes at them, too.

What I'd like to see is the damage model revised - ONE turret hit with a 30mm should be enough to disable the gun. As it is now, they are virtually immune to any guns the Germans have, including the 30mm. I've killed an Ostwin once when strafing in the A8, but never more.



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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Suave1]

That turret offers much more protection than b17 gunners had and look how hard they are to kill .

[flakbait]

Here's what I know about it. Turret armor consisted of 24.3mm boiler plates welded to form the turret itself. Hand-cranked turret drive allowed a max rotation nearly that of the PzIV, which used electric turret drive. Max ammo load is given as 416 rounds for the Flak 36 gun, and 240 rounds per minute as the rate of fire. I know we have a Flak 18, which could be the wrong gun. Handbook on German Military Forces, printed in 1945, states a Flak 36 was used.

Based on that, any aircraft would be able to easily knock out the gun crew. Dispersion would send rounds all over, and into, the turret. Figure a dispersion of 20 yards [60 feet] at 550 yards for four .50 calibers. Each .50 caliber puts out bewteen 550 and 800 rounds per minute. Take the average [675 rpm] and you get 45 rounds per second striking in a 20 yard area. Now fire a typical 4 second burst: that's 180 rounds, each a half-inch across and weighing nearly two ounces. The gun crew would be toast.

Use anything less and you'd see a gun crew lose limbs, anything more and you'd have to pick 'em up with a sponge. Throw cannons of any caliber into it and you've got nothing but red mist. I've fired on Ostwinds with just about everything; 7.92x57mm, .50 cals, 20mm cannons of all types, even 30mm Mk. 108 shells. Only the Almighty Hispano Mk. XXX Turbolaser killed it in a single pass. The .50 cals knocked out the turret on pass #2, while M.G. 151/20s did nothing until pass #2 also.

Before you jump, the dispersion of 20 yards is a guess nothing more. The rest of the info is real live fact gathered from several books or web sites.



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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[GRUNHERZ]

Model crew wounding/killing. I notice the driver gets wounded quite a bit and he is under armour. The gun crew was exposed from top attack and shrapnel in RL thats why the Kugelblitz and the Panther AAA units were developed at the end of war.

thanks GRUNHERZ

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-14-2000).]

[eskimo]

The Ostwind has a kill to death ratio of 2.7 to 1 against aircraft.  (Tour 9, 10-15-00, early A.M.)
I think what frustrates some people about the ostwind is that anyone and everyone can do well in it.  It's a pretty simple machine to opperate compared to a fighter.
I think that this is a good thing, however.  It gives newbies something that they can shoot down planes with, and not have to invest months of learning to get good.

The good news is that the Panzer has a kill to death ratio over the Ostwind of 4.2 to 1!
So if you need to defend your base, grab a Panzer.  If the VH is down, then you and your countrymen failed to protect your base adequitly.  

The Ostwind can be killed with fighters.  
In the Typhoon, I have 22 Ostwind kills at the expense of 12 deaths, and I'm sure that others are doing much better than I.

I do agree, however, that the Ostwind's gunners should be woundable and killable (as well as the Panzers top mg gunner).  Perhaps as the gunner, we could have X lives (X being # of crew).  If the gunner gets killed, you are put in the drivers seat, and must re-sellect the gun, untill everyone is dead.

eskimo

[funked]

Do you guys actually drive the Ostwind?  My gunners get whacked all the time.  Gun becomes inoperative - I assume that means the gunners are no longer drawing breath.

I'm not sure if it's .50 cal or 20mm doing this.  I put about 50 x .50 cal into an Ostwind tonight and he kept on shooting.  Maybe it's just a matter hitting the right area on the Ostwind.

Milenko said:    

... an airfield should have a security force stationed on or nearby specifically<sp?> for dealing with enemy ground troops. That would be HISTORICALLY accurate.

All the fields I've been to have automatic guns which magically fire through the buildings and can take out my Ostwind quite easily.  Also people will frequently spawn tanks and kick my ass.  Sure sounds like an airfield security force to me...

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-2000).]

[2Cool]

Yes, after being killed 12 times in a row by Ostys, I heartily concur. They desperately need some kind of downgrading. Incereasing their vulnerability and decreasing their accuracy is in order, imho. The only way to have any hope of success seems to be to hit him when he is shooting at someone else. Even if you succesfully drop from a steep dive it is no consolation when you get nailed the next second. I develop a very hostile attitude whenever I see an Ostwind these days.  

Base security troops and some kind of fixed defensive positions (for example; a PANZERABWEHRKANONE with a POWERFUL telescopic sight) would be welcome. Extra VH's at large/medium fields are a good idea, too.

Phew, whine mode off for a while.

2Cool
 

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"It isn't allways bein' fast or even accurate that counts; it's bein' willing."

[llbm_MOL]

Well there is one guy that does NOTHING but drive an Osty to a base, Takes out the VH as quietly as he can, Then just sits out of range of the ack and shoots any plane that comes up. He usually gets about 12-15 kills a sorty. I find this irritateing. He's a career Osty vulcher. He got me twice the other night. When you first come up on the runway your a sitting duck for about 10 seconds. More than enough time for an Osty to bracket and kill you. Could we start in the old revetmenst and have SOMETHING around us to keep us from dieing in the first few seconds? OR!!! Could we not let Osty's spawn like tanks and M3's. Make them for base defense only. If some guys wants to use them in the vulching manner make him drive an hour to a base. This crap might stop after a few long drives where he never makes it home and gets only a 15 kills in an hour vrs the 50-60 this guys gets in a few hours of playing.

LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by llbm_MOL (edited 10-15-2000).]