Author Topic: Not Vietnam, but Gaudalcanal  (Read 1517 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Not Vietnam, but Gaudalcanal
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2004, 10:23:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
A Question for the Bush guys.  

If we don't go after the other countries in the area, who are worse than Saddam, whom also harbor terrorist  and unlike Saddam actually have the capability to deliver WMDs, was Iraq justified and really part of the war on terror.

If we don't go after the other countries in the area, does it make you ask the question, why arent we going after Syria and Iran?


First, one at a time, all in due time.

And second, despite how much Iraq was an unfinished job needed to be finished, look what has happened. Makes it hard to say we'd be able to do it, considering the fact that the amount of cooperation is shrinking every day, and the will to stay the course at home is being destroyed by the current generation of Fondas and Cronkites, not to mention the original generation of Fondas and Cronkites.

Nevermind the fact that part of the desired effects of Afghanistan and Iraq is the possibility of peaceful regime change, or at least regime change without military intervention.

Oh, how soon it is forgotten that Saddam did have missles he was not suppposed to have, because they had more range  than they were supposed to. Realize that we had a presence over there at the invitation of several countries and the UN. Were we supposed to wait until Saddam could have hit large parts of our military presence with nukes before we did anything?

There is no doubt that Iran, Syria, and North Korea need to be dealt with. The problem is getting the support at home and abroad needed to do it. Everyone freely admits how bad Saddam was and what his intentions were, but no one wanted anyone to do anything about it. What makes you think they'll want anyone to step up and deal with the others?
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2004, 11:54:21 AM »
one at a time is fine with me.  shouldn't we start with the countries that are more involved in our problems though?

for example most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi, however we seem to like that gov't no matter how many of their citizens fly planes into our buildings.

as I see it Bush is acting like some school yard punk.  he took a shot to the nose and his pride is hurt, but instead of going after those who caused his problem he just looks around for a guy he knows he can beat up and starts in on him, to make an example of him.

he tries to look tough, and thinks working this kid over will teach the others a lesson.  unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.  since he went after who ever he knew he could beat, instead of someone involved in the attack against him, he just looks like an unstable punk who is lashing out in a desperate attempt to impress people of his toughness.

Offline Gyro/T69

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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2004, 02:10:40 PM »
“for example most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi, however we seem to like that gov't no matter how many of their citizens fly planes into our buildings.”

Capt, from your about statement, do you believe Bin Laden was acting as a proxy for the Saudi government? I.E, ordered by the “Saudi government” to fly planes into our buildings? Or if that’s to broad a statements for you, ordered to kill as many Americans as possible? I’m getting the sense from your argument that you believe we should invade the Saudis, because “most” of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi.

If we were to follow your logic a bit further, how many non-Afghans citizens did we find fighting in Afghanistan? Does the fact that citizens from other Muslim countries were fighting us there imply any and all said countries must be attacked?

All the 9/11 terrorists were in fact Muslim, not “most”, were they not? Should we attack every Muslim country because all the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim?

Offline Rude

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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2004, 02:24:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
A Question for the Bush guys.  

If we don't go after the other countries in the area, who are worse than Saddam, whom also harbor terrorist  and unlike Saddam actually have the capability to deliver WMDs, was Iraq justified and really part of the war on terror.

If we don't go after the other countries in the area, does it make you ask the question, why arent we going after Syria and Iran?


We will Mars....that is if Bush is re-elected.

Assaulting other nations which support terror can be accomplished in ways other than direct military confrontation.....for instance....the reality of Iraq and resolve by our nation to put down the insurgency and to promote a free and elected goverment in Iraq fires a meaningful salvo across the bow of Syria, Iran, NK and others.

The biggest oversight of the Bush Administration in going into Iraq, was the lack of support from our so-called allies....I believe they felt, while not being fully supportive publicly, our allies would have at least lended a hand rather than to fully stand up against us.

Big diff in my book from saying no thanks, we're not interested to actively opposing us in every single effort made.

We stand against what happened to US interest and civilians from Beirut to 9/11....I hope we continue to do so until the backs of those wishing us harm are broken.

Imagine turning on the news like so many of us did the morning of 9/11, to view a mushroom cloud over a major US city....to what would we blame this happening to anything other than apathy and a lack of character to do what must be done at whatever cost to protect our nation.

To feel good inside over a false peace while a sitting US president shares cigars and sherry with Europe, will not guarantee our peace and safety this time either.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 02:35:57 PM by Rude »

Offline Edbert1

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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2004, 02:37:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude

To feel good inside over a false peace while a sitting US president shares cigars and sherry with Europe, will not guarantee our peace and safety this time either.


Who is Sherry? Don't you mean Monica?

Offline mars01

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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2004, 03:37:55 PM »
Hey Rude,

I agree we need to go after the countries that pose the greatest threats.  We need to be told the truth about these threats and then we need to inihalate them.

My problem with Iraq is that Saddam was not the largest threat, he was barely a threat and we had him contained.  My second problem is that Bush went into Iraq under false pretenses.  He scared the crap out of us claiming Saddam had WMDs, which he did not.  Bush did not do the due dilligence making his decision to go to war.  He based it on shotty intelligence or possibly planned on taking Saddam out no matter what.  He has spent vast resources that might have been better put to work against the terrorists rather than fighting in Iraq.

I am fully behind our troops no matter how our government blunders.  They are there laying it on the line for us and deserve our respect and support no matter what.  The BS of the sixties shall not return.  Bush and his mistakes are fare game our troops are not!

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2004, 04:37:41 PM »
Quote

Posted by Mars
If we don't go after the other countries in the area, does it make you ask the question, why arent we going after Syria and Iran?


Response by Rude

We will Mars....that is if Bush is re-elected.



I don't think it is that simple.  We aren't being attacked by countries -- we are being attacked by a group of religious fanatics from a variety of countries, including the USA.

If country X attacked us, then yes, do what is necessary.  The connection between Saddam and terroists was tenuous at best.  Probable cause is insufficient evidence to convict.

This problem will not be solved by the US.  A final resolution will occur if and only if a united front is presented by the affected nations.  Collectively, we can solve the problem.  Without the support of the rest of the world, we are making matters worse, not better.

curly

Offline mars01

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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2004, 04:45:55 PM »
Quote
This problem will not be solved by the US. A final resolution will occur if and only if a united front is presented by the affected nations. Collectively, we can solve the problem. Without the support of the rest of the world, we are making matters worse, not better.
Yeah I agree with this.  This is one resone I think, in light of Bush's misrepresented WMD threat, that Iraq was a mistake and a bad waste of men and resources.  All of which could have been put to use against the true terrorist threats.

You have to agree Syria, Iran and North Korea are walking a fine line.

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2004, 05:08:51 PM »
The good Colonel's  analogy and conclusion is flawed on several counts.  First off Iraq WAS nothing to do with the war on terror. It was unfinished business. It needed a conclusion. It got one. Al Qaeda were holed up in Afghanistan.

Guadalcanal was more like Afghanistan. The first target.

But right now Iraq is part of the war on terror as a result of the invasion.  It has attracted many of the fanatics.  I wonder how many of  the suicide bombers are actually Iraqi?  On top of which Saddams well funded henchmen are behind much of the terror. Their aim is to get back in power by making Iraq ungovernable and the Allies to get out just like Vietnam.  Make no mistake Saddam could be put back in power if a Baathist coup succeeds.  

So at this stage it's pointless arguing the merits of WMD's or the reasons for the war. Leave that to the historians. The situation right now has to be sorted and it's going to be a long and bloody business.  But in the end what is needed for Iraq is for it to become a relatively stable Arab country like Egypt or Morocco.  That would be good but it will take time and effort.

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2004, 05:20:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
Yeah I agree with this.  This is one resone I think, in light of Bush's misrepresented WMD threat, that Iraq was a mistake and a bad waste of men and resources.  All of which could have been put to use against the true terrorist threats.

You have to agree Syria, Iran and North Korea are walking a fine line.


Yes, I agree.  Intentions and desires are one thing; action is another.  We can't go around attacking countries that we think are hostile to us.

However, the collective will of the world can be used to discipline countries such as Syria and Iran ... discipline to the extent that troops can be deployed.

Actions by single individuals are generally called crimes; actions by the community have the force of law.  It's taken humanity roughly 100,000 years to figure out a way to effectively protect itself against "law by the largest guy."  It's called law and order.  Let's use it.

curly

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2004, 12:22:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gyro/T69

Capt, from your about statement, do you believe Bin Laden was acting as a proxy for the Saudi government? I.E, ordered by the “Saudi government” to fly planes into our buildings? Or if that’s to broad a statements for you, ordered to kill as many Americans as possible? I’m getting the sense from your argument that you believe we should invade the Saudis, because “most” of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi.

If we were to follow your logic a bit further, how many non-Afghans citizens did we find fighting in Afghanistan? Does the fact that citizens from other Muslim countries were fighting us there imply any and all said countries must be attacked?

All the 9/11 terrorists were in fact Muslim, not “most”, were they not? Should we attack every Muslim country because all the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim?


all very good points and I agree with every one of them.  now, keeping your points in mind, can you explain to me again why we are in Iraq?

honestly, I don't think we should attack the Saudis.  the point is that if you can justify the Iraq war you can use the same route to justify an invasion of Saudi Arabia, and you'll get to that justification a lot sooner.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2004, 01:03:37 AM »
I thought the fight for Gaudalcanal was to save Australia?

Look at Iraq this way, for about fifty years we have manipulated governments and put in puppets, all this has done is backfire. At least we have taken a different approach and are trying to let the people of Iraq decide their fate.

The decision to invade is moot now, we cannot up and leave them high and dry. The elections must be held, this is very important to say the least. If the elections do not happen, it will be looked upon as we are controlling their government and we could lose support of the people. That is why insurgents are doing whatever they can to put a stop to the elections. IMO, countries in the middle east are weary of what might happen if democracy takes root in Iraq. Their people will demand the same, and power could well be lost.
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline GreenCloud

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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2004, 05:08:30 AM »
Quote
he was barely a threat and we had him contained
 MARS???


so quick to over look ..many decades of evidence..


Mars...he admitted to having and producing WMDs..The UN-NATO confirmed and was in process of  trying to"destryoing/observing


he used them on his own people..how do you contain 10lbs of anthrax..that would kill thousands..or vx gas...

the precursers to all thses wmds are easily hiden and transported..

So..do you say He had no WMDs and No way to make them?..


Didnt you gusy see the Head of his Nuclear Dept handover the bluprints to Nuc wepaons  and such to the American gov?..He had them buried in his back yard?


I find it so hard to beelive that the _Pro Soddom people think he was such a dumb guy who could be contained?..LMFAO...hes A STATE SPONSORING terrorist....PROOF POSITIVE?..Prove it Wrong..I will bet $100 to prove me wrong..or I shoudl say.."was"

and you gusy say.."go after worse" ..Ya..lets go Invade Korea rigth now?..sounds smart?...and Libya..Momar must of just gave up his WMDs Program out of the goodness of his heart?...KooomBii ii yaaaa My Lord/////Koombiiyaaaa

Love
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Offline Edbert1

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Not Vietnam, but Gaudalcanal
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2004, 10:14:55 AM »
Just a thought, why compare to either gudalcanal OR Vietnam? Why not compare it as this author did?

____________________
AMERICA & IRAQ
By AMIR TAHERI
   
September 21, 2004 -- 'WE'VE lost the peace,' men tell you. We cannot make it stick . . . Europeans, friend and foe alike, look you accusingly in the face and tell you how bit terly they are disappointed in you as an American . . . [Liberation] stands in the minds of the civilians for one thing: looting. Never has American prestige in Europe been lower."

Another media report from Iraq? No. This was novelist John Dos Passos in 1945, reporting for Life magazine, from newly-liberated Europe.

Dos Passos knew, almost by instinct, what journalists learn in practice: Good news is no news. There was no point in reporting from Berlin on how people were able to sit in the ruins of cafes and speak freely for the first time in 13 years.

Nor was there any point in celebrating the rebirth of a free German press with the first post-Hitler newspaper appearing in a single sheet. Nor again would Life devote space to such mundane subjects as refugees returning home and Europeans starting to rebuild their lives from scratch.

Needless to say, Dos Passos could not have imagined that 50 years later Germany would not only be reunited but would also be a working democracy. And could he have guessed that, thanks to those same "low prestige" Americans, Europe would enjoy the longest period of peace it has experienced in more than 1,500 years of its history?

Because history is never written in advance, post-war Europe could have gone in other directions. One factor, above all, ensured the direction that it took toward democratic reconstruction. That was the American determination to drain the swamps that had bred the evil of war in Europe for millennia. "We are in this for the long haul," President Harry Truman had said, reflecting the sentiments of most Americans.

TO be sure, the American resolve to build a new Europe, and around it a new world system, was not motivated by pure altruism but by enlightened self-interest — the key ingredient of virtually all lasting achievements in global politics.

The Americans realized that all the wars they had been forced to fight during the 170 years of the existence of their nation, including two world wars, had been provoked by undemocratic nations, mostly located in Europe.

Experience had taught the Americans that it was not sufficient to win a war against a despotic power for it to cease to be a threat. To remove the threat once and for all, and thus ensure U.S. security, required the democratization of nations that had been enemies of America at different times.

The American analysis has proved right: Democratic Europe is no longer a threat to U.S. national security.

Now, let us return to Iraq and the Middle East in general.

Immediately after the 9/11 attacks, President Bush must have pondered the same questions that Presidents Franklin D Roosevelt and Truman had asked in their time. The key question: Where does the most serious threat to America's national security come from?

In the post-Cold War world and with the elimination of the Soviet threat, the answer was clear. It was the broader Middle East region that represented the principal source of threat to the security and national interests of the US and its allies.

Even before 9/11, there was much evidence for this — from the seizure of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran in 1979 to the 1993 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York, and passing by the mass murder of 241 Marines in Beirut and the killing of more than a thousand other Americans in dozens of terrorist operations over two decades.

IT was in the Middle East that Ameri can flags were burned as part of na tional rituals. It was also there that official textbooks taught schoolchildren to hate America and devote their lives to killing "Jews and Cross-worshippers."

There was more. The United States had intervened in the Middle East, including by direct military action. Between 1956 and 2003, when the U.S. led the coalition that liberated Iraq, American forces had seen action in various parts of the Middle East on half a dozen occasions: in 1956 in the Arab Peninsula, in 1958 in Jordan and Lebanon, and in 1987 against the Iranian navy in the Persian Gulf. And in 1991 the U.S. led a coalition to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation.

During the same period, U.S. support was a major element in preventing the destruction of Israel by its Arab neighbors in 1967 and '73.

Looking back, it is clear that half a century of American military and political intervention in the Middle East failed to tackle the fundamental cause of the violence, war and terror bred in that region: the absence of democracy.

During the Cold War, the United States could not have built its Middle East policy on the imperative of democratization. Such a policy would have forced the despotic regimes to switch to the Soviet side, thus altering the global balance of power against the bloc led by the United States.

Today, however, such regimes have nowhere to go. The United States is, therefore, in a position to adopt the democratization as the central goal of its policy in the Middle East.

ONCE again, let us recall that what is at issue is not altruism or the inher ent goodness of helping Arab and other Muslim peoples to achieve freedom. The dismantling of despotic regimes and the defeat of the Islamofascist and pan-Arab ideologies that sustain them are essential for U.S. national security.

Americans will not be safe in their homes until and unless the Middle Eastern swamps of despotism and Islamofascism that breed terrorism are drained.

Some might say: Very well, but why start with Iraq? The answer is simple. Iraq under Saddam Hussein was the only country in the region that had invaded two of its neighbors in a decade. It was also the only country ever to be formally at war against the entire United Nations, after trying to wipe a U.N. member off the map.

Saddam's regime had violated 15 mandatory resolutions of the United Nations' Security Council for 13 years, an all-time record. It was also host to 23 terrorist organizations from all over the world.

That regime boasted other distinctions: It was the only one to have used chemical weapons in war since 1916, and the only one to have wiped out the population of one of its own cities in a gas attack.

The United States had recognized Saddam's regime as a threat to U.S. national security long before George W. Bush became president. The Iraq Liberation Act had been passed by the Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton after months of debate that concluded with a dire assertion: Saddam was a time-bomb that, if not defused, would one day do irreparable harm to the United States and its allies.

This was how Sen. John McCain responded to those who opposed the liberation of Iraq: "Giving peace a chance only gives Saddam Hussein more time to prepare for war on his terms, at a time of his choosing, in pursuit of ambitions that will only grow as his power to achieve them grows."

In the House, former Speaker Richard Gephardt was even more specific in urging the removal of Saddam from power before he is able to develop weapons of mass destruction: "I believe we have an obligation to protect the United States by preventing him from getting these weapons and either using them himself or passing them or their components on to terrorists who share his destructive intent."

More importantly, Saddam's regime was practically the only one in the region that lacked any internal mechanisms for change. This was not a disease that could be treated by herbal medicine; it needed surgery.

THAT surgery happed in the spring of last year, when a relatively small U.S.-led Coalition army marched on Baghdad, forcing the despot to flee to hide in a hole. The surgery was successful. It was completed at a remarkably limited human and material cost.

The structures of despotism and terror, built over half a century, have been dismantled with remarkable speed. But opponents of liberation, many of them non-Iraqis, have manifested their lack of popular support by having recourse to violence and terror.

Their aim is to prevent the general election scheduled for next January. The reason is clear: They know that free elections and democracy are deadly for the brand of despotic politics that they wish to re-impose on Iraq.

Iraq's liberation has already triggered various reform movements throughout the region. Whether or not these will lead to meaningful change, remains to be seen. Much depends on America's will to stay the course, to do in the Middle East what the U.S. did in Europe.

Contrary to the conventional wisdom peddled by part of the media, the liberation of Iraq has been a brilliant success. What is now needed is to translate that into another brilliant success — this time in building the first democratic Arab state, one that will become a model for the entire Middle East.

A majority of Iraqis believe that this can be done. The next U.S. election will show whether or not a majority of the Americans share that belief.

THERE is no doubt that Iraq, the Mid dle East and the whole world are better places without Saddam and his regime of oppression and terror. But this is only the first phase of a grand strategy whose aim is to help Arabs and other Muslim peoples build free societies. Freedom for Arabs and other Muslims would, in turn, be translated into security for the American people and their allies.

It is this big picture that the Americans must have in mind when they decide whether or not rescuing Iraq from the evil of Saddam was the right thing to do.

Offline Rude

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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2004, 10:34:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKcurly
I don't think it is that simple.  We aren't being attacked by countries -- we are being attacked by a group of religious fanatics from a variety of countries, including the USA.

If country X attacked us, then yes, do what is necessary.  The connection between Saddam and terroists was tenuous at best.  Probable cause is insufficient evidence to convict.

This problem will not be solved by the US.  A final resolution will occur if and only if a united front is presented by the affected nations.  Collectively, we can solve the problem.  Without the support of the rest of the world, we are making matters worse, not better.

curly


We should go after countries which support or harbor terrorists....as to support from other nations, yes, that would be preferable and more pallatible for the US....however, just because other nations refuse to get involved does not define what has occurred for some twenty years( terrorist attacks against US interest and citizenship) as acceptable and not warranting serious and direct involvment by ALL of the resources of our country to combat the same.