Its pretty remarkable...

[Elfie]

Were ships destroyed by gun fire yes some were.

Show us ONE instance where a CAPITAL ship, ie Carrier, Battleship, Heavy Cruiser was detroyed by a SINGLE aircraft firing ONLY machine guns and/or cannons. Sure you can probably destroy some of the smaller gun emplacements on a Capital ship with just aircraft guns, but you arent even gonna put a dent in the armor plating those ships had with aircraft guns.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by dedalos
I could be wrong but I think it took hundrets of planes and a few days to get Bismark and all the damage it finaly took was to its steering system from a bomb or torp.  It did not sink because they strafed it down with mgs.  Not to mention that when initially attacked it was parked and not moving.  They still could not hit it though.

Also, kamakazee's would hit the boat with a plane full of explosives.  Again, no mg involved.  And not many made it through the ack.

I dont have a problem losing a CV.  But losing it to MG fire is kind of, what can I say, strange??  Hit it with a bomb at list.  

In the case of my Yak taking it down, I have put more rounds in LANCs and they just flew away.  But the CV went down.  If you don;t see anything wrong with that there is no point to continue this dicusion.  

You arent wrong, your memory serves you correctly

[Widewing]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
You don't want it to happen you should sit in a gun position and shoot him down.

I did exactly that a few days ago. The MAWs were trying to sink our CV with Bf 110s, and I killed about a dozen of them before they finally understood that I wasn't going to let them strafe down the carrier.

So, they resorted to actual bombers and Jabos and came in a swarm instead of twos and threes. I got another 7 or so before they finally whittled down the CV. I have to give them credit, they certainly were determined. Dead, but determined.  

My regards,

Widewing

[dedalos]

Great points.  Only they have nothing to do with this thread.  
This is about MG fire taking down a CV.  If you think that has happened in real life then I understand.  Bringing all that other stuff in here shows that you ran out of valid arguments - if you even had any - and you are trying to make this thread something that it is not.
Good think the Japs did not know they could do that or we would have lost that war.  It would taken about 400 planes making a one pass at a US boat and strafe it down with their guns and then RTB and celbrate their victory.  I am surprized we still speak English in this country.

[phookat]

Originally posted by rod367th
Were ships destroyed by gun fire yes some were.

Which ones?  Cap ships, I mean.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Elfie
You arent wrong, your memory serves you correctly

lol, thank you.  Those things could survive 120mm hits and we are to believe that some went down to a few 20mm.  At best they would scratch the paint.

[Elfie]

Did suicide work yes it did.

That's still subject to debate over 60 years after the Kamikaze attacks.

Did Kamikaze attacks sink ships? Of course they did, but how many Kamikaze pilots never even made it to their target? Very few made it through fight cover and anti-aircraft fire. Off the top of my head I dont recall a single large carrier being sunk, smaller ships were sunk but even the USS Franklin survived a direct Kamikaze hit. The Franklin was put out of action for the rest of the war, but it SURVIVED.

Kamikaze attacks had no effect on the eventual outcome of the war. The Japanese wasted  literally hundreds of pilots and aircraft on a tactic that had very marginal success.

You gave one example of a A6M taking out a light carrier, also known as an Escort Carrier. Those ships (iirc) were merchant ship hulls converted to Carrier duty. Much smaller than a Capital ship.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by phookat
Which ones?  Cap ships, I mean.

Not sure, but I think it was one of these:

http://www.knology.net/~ortak/wood_projects/ship1.jpg

[Tumor]

It's a game... for gamers.  Get over it.


Tumor

[Elfie]

Originally posted by dedalos
Not sure, but I think it was one of these:

http://www.knology.net/~ortak/wood_projects/ship1.jpg

In order to sink that ship dont they have to kill that UBER glass bottle first???  

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Tumor
It's a game... for gamers.  Get over it.


Tumor

I think most of us want realistic flight models and  realistic damage models. After that, how you play the game is up to you imo. This thread is about aircraft guns ability to kill capital ships which would fall into the *realistic damage model* category

[J_A_B]

"You gave one example of a A6M taking out a light carrier, also known as an Escort Carrier."

Actually his example sounds like USS Princeton at Leyte.  It was a converted cruiser hull; smaller than a fleet carrier but decidedly larger and faster than a jeep carrier.   Light carriers like the Pinceton operated with the normal CV task force, unlike the CVE's.


A point worth making is that it was FAR easier to disable a CV than to actually sink it without using topedoes.  I can't think of any US carriers lost during the war that didn't suffer torpedo damage (Princeton was actually scuttled by the USN).  

J_A_B

[Elfie]

Originally posted by J_A_B
"You gave one example of a A6M taking out a light carrier, also known as an Escort Carrier."

Actually his example sounds like USS Princeton at Leyte.  It was a converted cruiser hull; smaller than a fleet carrier but decidedly larger and faster than a jeep carrier.   Light carriers like the Pinceton operated with the normal CV task force, unlike the CVE's.


A point worth making is that it was FAR easier to disable a CV than to actually sink it without using topedoes.  I can't think of any US carriers lost during the war that didn't suffer torpedo damage (Princeton was actually scuttled by the USN).  

J_A_B

Battles at Coral Sea and Midway? All American carriers lost in those battles had torpedo damage? Just asking because I never even thought to look that up.

Also, if the Princeton is the carrier that Rod367th is talking about, then a single A6M did NOT sink it since it was eventually scuttled. Although I admit, the reason for it being scuttled was damage caused by an A6M

[J_A_B]

"Battles at Coral Sea and Midway? All American carriers lost in those battles had torpedo damage? Just asking because I never even thought to look that up."

USS Langley (February '42,technically not a carrier at this point, and certainly not big as it was about the size of a CVE) was disabled by bomb damage.  Its escorting destroyers scuttled it with torpedoes.

USS Lexington (Coral Sea) was damaged by the Japanese, then fires raged out of control because of gas fumes.  USN topedoed it to get rid of it so that the fires wouldn't act as a beacon for the Japanese.  It probably could have been saved.

USS Yorktown (Midway) was bombed and torpedoed and abandoned pematurely; it stayed adrift for several days until a Japanese submarine put a few more torps into it (it also sank a destroyer which was close by).  Yorktown definately could have been saved had salavage operations been more than half-baked.

USS Hornet (Santa Cruz) almost defies the imagination.  First, it took about 6 bomb hits, 2 topedoes, and a suicide plane hit from the Japanese.  USN decided to scuttle it; destroyers shot 5 more torpedoes into it.  It wouldn't sink.   Destroyers closed to point-blank range and fired away with their 5-inch guns until they ran out of ammo (400-500 rounds); Honet still wouldn't sink.  USN just left it adrift in the middle of the ocean.  The Japanese found it and tried to tow it but Hornet refused to move so they fired another 4 torpedoes into it--Hornet finally went down.   It probably could have been saved.

USS Wasp (Guadalcanal) was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine and sank (quite quickly I might add).  This is the only big US CV that the Japanese sank without USN help.


USS Princeton (Leyte) was hit by a Kamikaze and ended up blazing stem to stern--but still on an even keel.   USN torpedoed it to so the fires wouldn't provide the Japanese with a beacon.   This one wouldn't have been worth saving but probably could have been.


That's all the big CV's the US lost duing WW2.   A few smaller ships, like CVE Gambier Bay (Leyte), were lost due to other factors like naval gunfire.  


J_A_B

[Zanth]

AH ships model damage very very simplisticly or a 110 (or likely anything else) would not sink a ship with guns.  AH just seems to count X ammount of damage anywhere - whether it is below the water line or not.   Very little of the significant damage a 110's guns will be doing will or would be to the hull, certainly not below the waterline.

If they modelled hull thickness and position of damage in relation to waterline, things would be different.  I imagine  that is really hard to do or hitech would have done it already.   Until then, this is likely just the way it has to be.