W.Gr 21 rockets in 190D9s?

[GODO]

After looking at several pictures of the frontal instrument panel of D9s I've found that the pair of "Gerät 21" switchers at the central column remain as in 190A8. Was D9 capable of loading these rockets or were these switchers used for other purposes?

[GODO]

The switchers can be clearly seen in this picture:



and here:

[GScholz]

I'm still impressed how modern the 190's cockpit look compared to most other WWII aircraft. It is not difficult to see that the engineers were pilots.

[Angus]

Spot on Scholzie.
Look even at some light aircraft today.
The fw 190 cockpit and controls were practically space age in their time.

[Crumpp]

It was a space age aircraft for its day, for sure.

It helps to have the designers fly their own design in combat.  What amazes me is the amount of "tweaking" done to the FW-190 over its lifetime.  Hundreds of changes were made to the design over it's lifetime to improve it.  Everything from the fuel delivery ( sans SU Pump for the Spitfire), control surfaces, props, internal structure, and engine improvements.  

The NASM just finished restoring a BMW 801TS motor.  The Kommandgerat for a BMW 801G2 was sent to them to help in it's restoration. The NASM couldn't figure it out!  They have sent it to NASA for reverse engineering.

For example there is a tube on the G-2 crate motor with no corresponding color code in the DIN L5 specifications. What could this mean? We can only vaguely speculate on a possible function. It is very mysterious as it ends BEHIND the lufterrad and is directed toward it! Fire supression??

It's funny.  If you read the US Navy report the US pilots disliked the Kommandgerat because it did not give them complete control over the A/C settings.  The Kommandgerat could with one lever adjusted fuel mixture, throttle, and prop pitch to their precise optimum settings for the altitude and airspeed the plane was travelling.  It would also adjust them to maintain optimum settings without input from the pilot. It was in essence a "Go" lever.

Additionally at anytime the pilot could switch the Kommandgerat off and adjust everything manually to include the supercharger gearing.

 

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
What amazes me is the amount of "tweaking" done to the FW-190 over its lifetime.  Hundreds of changes were made to the design over it's lifetime to improve it.  Everything from the fuel delivery ( sans SU Pump for the Spitfire), control surfaces, props, internal structure, and engine improvements.  

Nothing amazing about 'tweaking' on the 190, all a/c had mods done to 'tweak' their performance.

[Crumpp]

Nothing amazing about 'tweaking' on the 190, all a/c had mods done to 'tweak' their performance.

Yes Milo,

All A/C did get mods.  However most people think the BMW 801D2 engine that went into the FW-190A3 is the same motor that is in the FW-190A8.  It is not.

Crumpp

[GODO]

FW-190A3 was the last 190 with not-overridable Kommandogerät.
190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s. I read somewhere that the "mechanical computer" attached to the Doras Jumos was far more advanced than the BMW system. Still trying to find info about the Jumo device.

We can also add the usage of control rods instead of cables to move the control surfaces, these rods were much better than typical cables, eliminating any "lag" in control surfaces response.

BTW, any info about the rockets usage in Doras?

[Crumpp]

190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s.

Interesting.  Never heard of any other engine except for the BMW-801 series with the Kommandogerat.

What I have found fascinating is the fact that the Kommandogerat was not just an "autopilot" for the engine.  It actually sensed the state of the motor real-time and adjusted things to keep the engine at optimum performance.

When you hear the expression "mechanical computer" we tend to think that it is a simple machine.  For example, push the "throttle" to this point and the engine settings change to this every time.  The reality is far different.  
It was in every sense of the word a "brain box" for the motor.

Take propeller efficiency for example.  A prop is most efficient when set for a certain engine rpm, blade angle, and prop rpm.  You can adjust for engine rpm changes by either adjusting the blade angle (constant speed) or the prop rpm.

The Kommandogerat in real time continuously monitored and adjusted this relationship to keep it at its most efficient as well as dozens of other functions of the motor.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

BTW

The Dora could carry WGr. 21 rockets.

There was an entire staffle outfitted with R4M rockets and Panzerblitz's rockets were also commonly mounted in the final months of the war.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Interesting.  Never heard of any other engine except for the BMW-801 series with the Kommandogerat.

He did not say it was Kommandogerat of the BMW. Jumo developed their own.

[Glasses]

We all know Kurt Tank ruled.

He was probed by aliens that gave him superior intelect,thus the 190 was born

In the JG26  book by A Price there was an anecdote that stated that in the Dora everything was electric everything was push this do that and everything else .

BTW Mando sueña que  eso no va , te puedes hacer pajas pensado en eso pq de aqui a un milenio te lo ponen en el juego.

[Crumpp]

190D and Ta152 had also an equivalent to the 801D Kommandogerät as well as 109s.

I did some checking into this.  I believe folks are confusing the "automatic" setting that was standard on VDM propellers after 1940 with the Kommandogerat.

When set to automatic VDM propellers would adjust pitch in accordance with engine rpm.  The pilot still adjusted the throttle, mixture, and managed the engine.  This means that depending on the what throttle setting the pilot chose, while the prop would be adjusted most efficiently for the that engine rpm, the most efficient settings for the entire package might not be in effect.

It is not the same thing as the Kommandogerat.  The Kommandogerat monitored the functioning of the engine and adjusted it accordingly.  It also adjusted the propeller.  The level of sophistication and accuracy is much higher on the Kommandogerat.  Unless it was switched to manual, the "throttle" lever on the BMW-801 simply told the Kommandogerat the pilot wanted more speed.  The Kommandgerat would then continously adjust both the prop and the engine throughout the powerband/airspeed curve keeping them at the most efficient setting to gain the speed the pilot requested.

The DB 605 series did have a "ladendruckregler" hydraulic regulator which automatically monitored the boost pressure and prevented damage from overboosting.

Crumpp

[GODO]

BMW Kommandogerät diagram

Crumpp, the Jumo system was based in the very same principles as BMW Kommandogerät, in fact, the 190D throttle control from the cockpit was just the very same as for 190A. What I read is that Jumo system was simply more efficient than BMW system (also 3 years more modern).

[Crumpp]

Crumpp, the Jumo system was based in the very same principles as BMW Kommandogerät,

Do you have any documentation on it.  Nothing I have shows the FW-190D9 with anything like a Kommandogerat.   All the documentation I have says the Jumo had the regular VDM automatic propeller and the hydraulic manifold regulator.

in fact, the 190D throttle control from the cockpit was just the very same as for 190A.

Yes it is the same lever but it does not perform the same function.  It is simply a throttle AFAIK.

What I read is that Jumo system was simply more efficient than BMW system (also 3 years more modern

It had some automatic features but not on the scale or sophistication of the Kommandogerat, AFAIK.

BTW that link leads to a diagram of a 1942 Kommandgerat. Test was conducted in 1944 of an FW-190A3 BMW801D2.  It is only good for a 1942 engine.  The Kommandogerat was constantly upgraded and improved. The one mounted on a 1944 FW-190A8 is completely different from the one mounted on an FW-190A3.  To the point it has to be reverse engineered by NASA in 2004 if an FW-190F8 is going to fly with it.

Last paragraph:
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-192/index.cgi?page0004.gif

Time Frame of the test is in the third paragraph:
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-192/index.cgi?page0003.gif

Crumpp