Poland?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by ramzey
Genesis:
1990 Gorbatchow said true about Katyn then russians propaganda jump on Poland and claim we killed 40-80k russian POW. They need to say something about us, to balance murder they did. OK its propaganda who like to finde excuse for their own purposes. You know  its about great russians carring flame of freedom for other nations

1) Gorbachev could agree with anything if it contained enough bull***** about "evil bolsheviks" and "russian barbarians". He is a liar and traitor. I hope sooner or later we'll see him hanging on a lamp-post in the street.


2) Russian (modern russophobic) propaganda screamed about Katyn on every corner, but the story of Imperial and Soviet POWs was never voiced by mass-media, except some marginal newspapers. I know about it only because I have read some special literature.

Thank you for the figures. I'll try to find my sources again. I understand that information there was in a form of propaganda, just to blame "evil Psheks", but there must be some truth there if you are able to throw away propaganda hype.

[GRUNHERZ]

Ahh yes the good old communist boroda shows up again...

Have you kissed your portait of Stalin today Boroda?

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Vudak
An ex-girlfriend had her cousin over from Poland for the summer...  Works as a waitress for $1 per hour in Krakow.  She's college age, and evidently part of what is known over there as the "Lost Generation"...

Many people over there evidently feel that when we've had our fill with them, when we've used them enough, they'll be left to the wolves...  Not as though we haven't done that to them before.

The place has one of the saddest economies in Europe...  But, then again, basically for the majority of the last century, their best and brightest, their leaders, visionaries, and go-getters, were systematically slaughtered by various brutal regimes.

The kids these days don't know what to do with themselves.  Over there, they don't go to college to party, they go to college to work their bellybutton off, and then when they graduate, their college diploma is seen by many as a worthless piece of paper...

Many I've met actually preferred communism...  For the simple reason that at least then they had work.

That's just a very, very sad statement for how well we help our Allies.  And yes, they are an Ally, one of what seems these days to be our few.

Now I'm not going to say I know the whole story, I've never been to Poland and everything I've said is based on the opinions of a relative few (maybe 5-6 Poles in total).  But I will say that I believe them and they have my sympathy.

They are most certainly NOT any less of a country.  At least not according to the values I've been raised to believe.  That "all men are created equal".  Not just the strong or rich.  All.

If you think the recent selling out of Poland is bad, how about you ask your girlfriend's cousin about how the US and British sold out Poland during WW2 to the Soviets... the Soviets raped Poland, executed thousands of her young officers and made the Nazi occupation appear to be by a kindergarden class.

We, as US citizens should forever be ashamed of what this nation did to Poland.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ahh yes the good old communist boroda shows up again...

Have you kissed your portait of Stalin today Boroda?

Are you illiterate? I told you many times I am not a member of a Communist party and never voted for them. I was a Young Communist since 1987, but in 1987 it was almost mandatory if you wanted to go to university... Man, I hated that corrupt stupid organisation!

Portrait of Stalin? Thanks for a good idea, I'll hang it on a wall at my workplace, and a slogan: "Democracy ends here."

[ramzey]

Originally posted by Boroda
"I already know what your next argument will be"

 

I had long disussions about Katyn tragedy here. I don't know who slaughtered Polish officers there. They were killed from German weapons, and in 1940 there was a recreation park there.

The last reliable document on Katyn still is a Burdenko comission report made in 1944.

What Gorbachev and his gang of traitors said - it's their problem. They are liars and traitors, and most of the papers they gave to Polish side are proven to be fake.

Pan Kmiecik, the history of Rzeczpospolita and Russia/Ukraine is one long conflict. What your brave warriors have done to Ukraine will not be forgotten soon.

As many intelligent Russians I have a guilt complex for Poland, but it doesn't meant anyone is allowed to call my nation "barbaric". Most of the "crimes" you blame us for were just self-defence, like the 1920 Polish invasion.

JFYI: my Grandfather graduated from Warsaw University in 1914. He studied there because he didn't finish classic gymnasium, and couldn't go to ant university in Russia. Only in Polish Kingdom he could study.

Boroda who do you try to cheat?
Katyn was done by same special forces who send people to syberia, who burn hauseholds , fields ahead of walking german army.Tell me thats arent happend and its not russian foult and i start thinking you are blinde for all arguments as any other comunist.
If nazis use this for your own propagand and claim thats not them, they have reason for this.
Claiming Kattyn has no place and we not did that is like we not invade Finland Or like claming general plan about bringing communism for whole europe has no place neather ;-)

Now you try to find every dirt to make us looks worse. Sure we are not saint. And as every country  we have dark sides of history too. But compared to russians we are angels.

Dont use word Polish invasioon in 1920, why? its  simple
Poland was occupied by russian killers by 124 years. Your countrymens killed a lot of Poles during this time and send  thausends to syberia. You killed 4 Polish uprising, try to get ride of our language.
And you are suprised we like back our land in 1920 , when we can fight again?

How many countries is still imprisoned in great russian federacy? huh?

[straffo]

Originally posted by Bodhi
If you think the recent selling out of Poland is bad, how about you ask your girlfriend's cousin about how the US and British sold out Poland during WW2 to the Soviets... the Soviets raped Poland, executed thousands of her young officers and made the Nazi occupation appear to be by a kindergarden class.

We, as US citizens should forever be ashamed of what this nation did to Poland.

You are not serious  , don't you ?

[ramzey]

Originally posted by Boroda
1) Gorbachev could agree with anything if it contained enough bull***** about "evil bolsheviks" and "russian barbarians". He is a liar and traitor. I hope sooner or later we'll see him hanging on a lamp-post in the street.

be mad at man who bring you freedom again? who said thrue about your own histiory?is true hurt you so much?

Originally posted by Boroda

2) Russian (modern russophobic) propaganda screamed about Katyn on every corner, but the story of Imperial and Soviet POWs was never voiced by mass-media, except some marginal newspapers. I know about it only because I have read some special literature.

thats B.S, special literature like Izviestia, Pravda? Every time who som russian folks try to make yourself whiter, bring this case, its not taboo. On every war/military/forum they use same argument.
After historical reaserches we are able to say true about this, you need link to book about this? but thats in polish

[Boroda]

Originally posted by ramzey
Boroda who do you try to cheat?
Katyn was done by same special forces who send people to syberia, who burn hauseholds , fields ahead of walking german army.Tell me thats arent happend and its not russian foult and i start thinking you are blinde for all arguments as any other comunist.

I AM NOT A COMMUNIST!!!

Polish "comminity" in Siberia appeared looong time before Bolsheviks. Remember Pilsudsky's brother who refused to go back to Poland?...

I was surprised when I heard that Chersky and other researchers of Siberia were Polish. to that brave people!

Polish officers in Katyn' were killed from German weapons. There was a city recreation park in Katyn forest in 1940. I don't know who killed Polish POWs in Katyn. I don't say I am 100% sure it was Germans, did I make it clear?

Originally posted by ramzey
If nazis use this for your own propagand and claim thats not them, they have reason for this.
Claiming Kattyn has no place and we not did that is like we not invade Finland Or like claming general plan about bringing communism for whole europe has no place neather ;-)

There was no "general plan about bringing communism for whole europe" in 1939. It's obvious if you studied Soviet history.

I have admitted here that white-Finnish war was an act of agression from Soviet side.

Katyn' case was brought up by Goebbels's Ministry of Propaganda - that's another reason to say it was German fault.

Originally posted by ramzey
Now you try to find every dirt to make us looks worse. Sure we are not saint. And as every country  we have dark sides of history too. But compared to russians we are angels.

Great. No nation contains of angels only. You are not angels even compared to Russian "barbarians on their shaggy mounts".

Originally posted by ramzey
Dont use word Polish invasioon in 1920, why? its  simple
Poland was occupied by russian killers by 124 years. Your countrymens killed a lot of Poles during this time and send  thausends to syberia. You killed 4 Polish uprising, try to get ride of our language.
And you are suprised we like back our land in 1920 , when we can fight again?

Soviet forces took back the land occupied by Poland in 1939. In 1920 you lost some of the land you had before the invasion started, so - it was Soviet victory.

In 1920 your army occupied Kiev. Is Kiev a historical Polish land? Eh? Agressors must be punished.

Originally posted by ramzey
How many countries is still imprisoned in great russian federacy? huh?

What? We have abandined the republics that we had to feed in 1991. Now only gangsters in Chechnya are "unhappy" about Russian rule. I say - "gangsters", ordinary law-abiding people are happy that they are protected by Russian laws against Moslim-fundamentalist gangs and Shariat law.

We are now a mulitcultural, tolerant federation of many nations including Moslim Tatarstan and Bashkiria, Buddist Buryatia and Kalmykia, and so on.

Telling horror tales about opression from Russian Empire is silly. I already told you about my Grandfather. He could speak Polish almost as good as Russian, being born near Voronezh, in metropolitan lands, not far from the border of Don Warriorship Land (Cossack land).

I feel sorry for "occupation". But you have no right to call us names. Sorry again.

[GRUNHERZ]

Boroda are you upset that the USSR ened?

Are you upset that former USSR states broke off?

Are you upset that the cold war ended?

Are you upset that communism has been proven to be a complete faiure?

Are you upset that the Berlin Wall fell and that Germany was reuinited?

Are you upset that the old Soviet satelites like Poland are no longer so bound to moscow?

[Chitownflyer]

Mr Pavel Pavlov I had provide a link to the actual Red Russian order for the excution of the polish Officers in a memo from  Beria to Stalin with this link

Truth is always better to argue with than lies…


http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/pg62.gif

"….Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kagan"ovich, both favoring execution…..."

Take a long look at this document… it’s the smoking gun.

Mark Kmiecik

PS... NO Secrets now, with the world wide web of the third Millennium.

Also, GOD Bless Poland and those that died  keeping the dream of Poland alive and bringing its dream to the map of the world and to it's release from the yoke of russian domination.
 
... from a lost son of Poland and a fredom loving American...

[fd ski]

oh god, is it this time of a year again. What is it, 3rd time we're doing whole 'who killed whose POWs' thing again ?

Let it be folks, it's history.

Oh, btw, whole charging tanks with sabres story is bull****. Made up to make polish army look stupid. Funny how it morphed over the years.

[midnight Target]

I just read a very cool story about the Polish submarine service in WW2. Not many people knew they had one. Their most famous sub, the Orzel (Eagle) was a lend lease American boat that was at sea when the Germans over-ran Danzig. It hid in Estonia for a while until the Estonians decided they were on the other team, then they escaped under a hail of gunfire to England.

The boat served in the English Navy under a Polish captain, Jan Grudzinzki. In April 1940 the Orzel sank the German troop ship Rio De Janeiro. It was the 1st successful torpedo attack by any POlish warship.

The Orzel disappeared a month later off the coast of France.. probably sunk by a mine.

[Chitownflyer]

Originally posted by fd ski
oh god, is it this time of a year again. What is it, 3rd time we're doing whole 'who killed whose POWs' thing again ?

Let it be folks, it's history.

The point to remembering history is two fold... one, to remember those that died and those shoulders we stand on, and  two... so we shall not forget the lessons which history has taught us and not to make the same mistakes again...


That's the whole point, isn't it????

Mark Kmiecik

[ramzey]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I just read a very cool story about the Polish submarine service in WW2. Not many people knew they had one. Their most famous sub, the Orzel (Eagle) was a lend lease American boat that was at sea when the Germans over-ran Danzig. It hid in Estonia for a while until the Estonians decided they were on the other team, then they escaped under a hail of gunfire to England.

The boat served in the English Navy under a Polish captain, Jan Grudzinzki. In April 1940 the Orzel sank the German troop ship Rio De Janeiro. It was the 1st successful torpedo attack by any POlish warship.

The Orzel disappeared a month later off the coast of France.. probably sunk by a mine.

hmm,

Orzel was not leand lease ship, we order design and construction in Holland . Ship was finished in 1938 as one of the serie.
Orzel was lost during patrol on Nort Sea in may 1940
Also he have "brother " ship, not less famus about his service Dzik

ps. We had one land lease submarine, thisone was sink by escort of one of allies convoys on the surface, due wrong indentyfication by destroyers gunners. It was Jastrzab (Hawk)

ps2. AH fly son of one of sailors from ORP Orzel

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by ramzey
hmm,

Orzel was not leand lease ship, we order design and construction in Holland . Ship was finished in 1938 as one of the serie.
Orzel was lost during patrol on Nort Sea in may 1940
Also he have "brother " ship, not less famus about his service Dzik

Oops, you are right. The story I read said there were 3 total Polish subs, 2 from Holland and one lend lease. It never said the Orzel was the lend lease sub. Sorry.