Combat flaps...

[Krusty]

...are too damn effective. P47s that can fly steady and level at 80mph with no problem, P38s -- the long SCOFFED AT and INFERIOR P38 that was withdrawn from the ETO because it performed so poorly, can now double loop with only 200mph, can hang on its nose for more time than any other fighter in the game, have flaps too damn effective to be serious.


SUGGESTION

Only make the FIRST NOTCH of combat flaps work as they should, make all subsequent notches less suited for high speeds and/or for anything other than soft landings or heavy takeoffs.


I've been flying the pony the p47d11 and the p38 often lately and they're all outta whack big time. 1 notch is great. Gives you just enough OOMPH to get a better turn (as should be) but I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.

[Kweassa]

This thread is gonna be great, I can tell

 (grabs popcorn and sits back..)


ps) Oh, btw, I agree that flap efficiency for US planes are bullshi*.  

[Schutt]

No they are fine, just lower the eny value of the P38 and P47 to reflect the great maneuver characteristics.

Seriously i have few trouble shooting down p38s, p51s and p47 when flowen by average pilots (in a spitV that is).

The thing that i find silly is if the people wiggle the plane with constant rudder/ailoron/elevator input so it twists mercyless.

I am not sure if that dancing is possible due to the net lag or if they really make it dance that way, but i dont think a real plane can fly that way, would stall out instantly.

To me it looks something about the stall behaviour is not right... possible instant accelerations are insane...

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
...are too damn effective. P47s that can fly steady and level at 80mph with no problem, P38s -- the long SCOFFED AT and INFERIOR P38 that was withdrawn from the ETO because it performed so poorly, can now double loop with only 200mph, can hang on its nose for more time than any other fighter in the game, have flaps too damn effective to be serious.


SUGGESTION

Only make the FIRST NOTCH of combat flaps work as they should, make all subsequent notches less suited for high speeds and/or for anything other than soft landings or heavy takeoffs.


I've been flying the pony the p47d11 and the p38 often lately and they're all outta whack big time. 1 notch is great. Gives you just enough OOMPH to get a better turn (as should be) but I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.

Krusty, the P38 in AH is the 38L that was everything the 38 was supposed to be.  The 8th AF gave up the 38 with the last of the 38s moving on in the late summer of 44.  But the 9th AF had Groups that continued to fly it with one flying the 38 right til the end.  They seemed pleased with it's performance.

In the Med, the 1st, 14th and 82nd FGs all flew the 38 from beginning to end.  They too had no complaints about the 38.

Do a bit of research on the 38 and the 8th AF Fighter Command etc before you start painting with too broad a brush.  For the most part the complaints were cockpit heating and engine troubles and this was with the earlier model 38s.

Dan/Slack

[simshell]

1 i think your talking about more early P38s i think the P38L did much better so no it was not that BAD:rolleyes:

2 the P38 has 2 Engs countering props so its stalls are not a instant Snap like 190s

the P38 should be able to Hang because when it gets that slow it stalls down not 1 way like 1 prop planes


so it should be able to Hang on its prop more then anyother fighter

and its flaps add wing area

[Kweassa]

Seriously i have few trouble shooting down p38s, p51s and p47 when flowen by average pilots (in a spitV that is).

 Try the same with a Bf109G. It hardly turns with the P-47, and gets decisively outturned by the P-51.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

With a high aspect ratio wing, extremely efficient Fowler flaps, and two 1700 horsepower engines with two props to put that power into the air, the P-38 should be able to hang on its props for a long time. Check the power to weight ratio, the wing loading, and then add to it that you have two props, not one, putting that power into the air, while you're at it, consider that the P-38 also has zero net torque. In the hands of a good pilot (better than I), it is and should be lethal if you get low and slow with it and you are not flying a Zeke, or something of that ilk.

If you are going to use historic data to judge the P-38, remember that ONLY the 8th AF had issues with the P-38. Every other group that used the P-38 used it with great success.

For all intents and purposes, the 8th AF (the staff not the men who flew the missions) screwed the pooch on damned near everything they did for most of the war.

[phookat]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Try the same with a Bf109G. It hardly turns with the P-47.

Yep.  The P47 is quite surprising, pulls a scissors in front of me like a Zero.  

Even though all the cards are against the 47 anyway...seems there might be a problem in the FMs.

[flyingaround]

Originally posted by phookat
Yep.  The P47 is quite surprising, pulls a scissors in front of me like a Zero.  

Even though all the cards are against the 47 anyway...seems there might be a problem in the FMs.

I'm sure alot of spit pilots say the same after I kill 'em in a me110g2.

I good pilot in an avg plane will kill an avg pilot in a good plane.


It's the pilot not the plane.

[phookat]

Yeah, I know...but I've seen it several times, from different people.

Not that it matters, with a 47.  Usually.

[GScholz]

The P-38 has lower power to weight ratio than most single engined fighters in the same time period. It also has a similar or worse wing loading, but its combat flaps make up for some of it.

[SlapShot]

I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.

You obviously ran into an inexperienced Spit pilot ... simple as that.

If you or anybody has problems with the flight model, you must supply hard evidence that something is wrong. I doubt HTC will do or look at anything when personal conjecture is presented.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by SlapShot
I out turned a spitfire in a low slow stall speed with a p51D and full flaps. That's just not right.

You obviously ran into an inexperienced Spit pilot ... simple as that.

If you or anybody has problems with the flight model, you must supply hard evidence that something is wrong. I doubt HTC will do or look at anything when personal conjecture is presented.

Not so. The spit14 pilot was experienced. He flew well. We both just seemed to agree to do a flat turn to get the better of the other, each believing that the other would soon die. Well it stretched on for about 5 minutes, and be broke off when his wrist got tired. I kid you not, we both were turning for 5 minutes, on the deck, in a lag pursuit. We were both feeling really stubborn and just didn't want to give up.

I don't care what you would have done. If you had gone vertical the answer might have been different. But it's a fact that many Spitfire fights degenerated into spits doing flat turns (as found in pilot's recall of a fight in his spit vs a 190F-8 that was posted on the forums a while back).

And this is NOT personal conjecture. It is fact. Many people have experienced it in the game. Don't believe it? Get a friend and host a HTH room to test it out in privacy (read: don't test it in the MA). The reason it's not changed is two-fold : a LOT of people fly US planes, more than any other grouping, I bet, and they enjoy the use of flaps, correct or not, because it gets them kills, and 2) everybody knows that there have been problems with combat flaps since well before AH2 came out. They have been tweaked several times (according to the forums) and still are not right, but I believe HTC to be tired of fixing them and have just let them sit as-is while they work on other things. It is a case of "they work, let's fix things that dont work first" to me.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by GScholz
The P-38 has lower power to weight ratio than most single engined fighters in the same time period. It also has a similar or worse wing loading, but it's combat flaps make up for some of it.

You think so? Wonder why the P-38 accelerates faster than the F4U and the P-51.

[GScholz]

Because the F4U and the P-51 are not "most single engined fighters". For your next trick may I suggest applauding the P-38's power to weight ration by comparing it to the Jug? Or perhaps a B-17?