Author Topic: Dmf  (Read 1428 times)

Offline Nash

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« on: October 03, 2004, 11:23:14 PM »
Don't tell us who ya work for...

But tell us what polls you put stock into, and why.

Tell us how you see this race going.

Tell us what, in the next few weeks, Bush needs to do, and what Kerry needs to do.

Give us yer prediction on the outcome.

Thanks! :aok

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2004, 11:54:57 PM »
I don't put any more credence in particular polls than others except for, perhaps, the National Elections Studies (NES) poll conducted out of the University of Michigan.  The NES poll is purely scientific, however, and it is meant to explain electoral outcomes ex post facto rather than predict them.  As long as the sampling methodology and survey design follow accepted scientific standards, most "major" polls should yield reasonably accurate results.  I think you'll find that aggregating (i.e. averaging) the results of major polls provides a more accurate picture of electoral goings-on.

In that sense, Gallup has been a bit odd since the primaries (an observation Zogby has noted recently) since it consistently provides poll results that differ rather substantially from the mean.  That's not to say that Gallup is inaccurate, but it does suggest that they might employ a sampling methodology that differs a bit from most of the other major polls.

If you average poll results, I think the difference between Bush and Kerry before the debate was about 2 to 3% in favor of Bush.  I have no idea how that stands now since only a few polling organizations have released comprehensive polling data since the debate.

I personally see this race as Bush's to win or lose.  National security is his strong point, and now it has become a central theme in the campaign.  In addition, he sits on an economy that has slowly but consistently grown in the last year.  However, public perception of economic improvement often lags by as much as three to six months, so any sudden improvements now will probably not help the president.

Another point to keep in mind is that voters tend to evaluate incumbent presidents retrospectively and challengers prospectively.  So essentially, Bush must run on his record on national security, the economy, and more.  If he can convince voters that he did an acceptable job on key election issues, he'll probably win.  Expect him to put a good spin on his record but not waste much time on talking about what new things he will do.  On the other hand, Kerry must both discredit Bush's record and demonstrate that he could do better in the future than Bush has done in the past on key election issues.  It is not enough for him to demonstrate that Bush has failed in Iraq or on the economy; he must also convince voters that he would do as well or better.

I honestly can't predict an outcome at this point.  Bush should hold most of the cards though, so I would say that his probability of winning is greater at this point than Kerry's.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline rpm

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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2004, 12:06:19 AM »
Wow, you guys are like the Big Giant Head. I salute you.
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2004, 12:26:20 AM »
There should be some kind of "I am not worthy" emoticon.

Thanks DMF.... 'preciate it.

But... heh... I disagree with ya on just about every conclusion you drew.

Nonetheless... it's wicked to hear your POV.

In my opinion, this isn't Bush's race to win or lose. It's Kerry's. It always has been. It will be up until the 2nd.

You say "National security is his strong point, and now it has become a central theme in the campaign."

National Security was (read was) Bush's strong point. Kerry has blurred the line such that being tough on Iraq doesn't equate to security. Kerry has a bit more to do in this regard, but it's starting to sink in. National security as it pertains to the war in Iraq is Kerry's. National security as it pertains to the 'homeland' is still Bush's. So far...

Kerry has won the last two weeks, and it was due to coming out hard against Bush's foreign policy. Foreign policy was GW's turf... and that turf has become a great deal more uncomfortable.

In any event, and despite the fundamentals, any question of national security has started to work towards Kerry's favour. Still not passing Bush, but the gap has begun to close.

Again, as to "Bush's race to win or lose"... You said: "Another point to keep in mind is that voters tend to evaluate incumbent presidents retrospectively and challengers prospectively.

Exactly right... What has Bush done, and what will Kerry do?

It's a choice between bad, and the unknown...

Is there any evidence that shows that people tend to choose the bad over the unknown?

I don't know of any.... but certainly Reagan was a leap of faith if there ever was one.

Bush doesn't hold the cards here... My completely honest belief. He has never held the cards. It's Kerry's to lose.

Pls reply.... I really look forward to hearing your POV.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2004, 12:55:33 AM »
Bush/Cheney 2004

Hope this helps.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline SOB

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2004, 01:41:39 AM »
I go for the NES too.  Mike Tyson's Punch Out RULES!
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2004, 02:47:20 AM »
Too close to call at this point.  The election will be won/lost over some stupid soundbite.  

Remember, in the US, our voters are such profound thinkers that we actually elect movie stars to public office.

And once again, I remind you of Adelai Stevenson's response to a crowd which shouted "atta boy, Adelai, every thinking man will vote for you!"  His response: But, I need a majority.

curly

Offline Nash

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2004, 02:59:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKcurly
"...I remind you of Adelai Stevenson's response."


That guy was deep.... holy...

"the rents and tears across the entire fabric of human affairs caused by the constant vendettas carried on by competing faiths."

I can't remember too much about him, but I have the nagging sense that he was the guy who blew his brains out (or something less severe) because he went in front of the UN saying something which turned out to be false.

Was that him?

Offline AKcurly

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2004, 03:13:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
That guy was deep.... holy...

"the rents and tears across the entire fabric of human affairs caused by the constant vendettas carried on by competing faiths."

I can't remember too much about him, but I have the nagging sense that he was the guy who blew his brains out (or something less severe) because he went in front of the UN saying something which turned out to be false.

Was that him?


Yes, very bright fellow.  No, I don't recall him blowing his brains out.  Here's a nice page which summarizes his activities.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAstevensonA.htm

curly

Offline Charon

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2004, 08:44:33 AM »
Quote
National Security was (read was) Bush's strong point. Kerry has blurred the line such that being tough on Iraq doesn't equate to security. Kerry has a bit more to do in this regard, but it's starting to sink in. National security as it pertains to the war in Iraq is Kerry's. National security as it pertains to the 'homeland' is still Bush's. So far...


The problem is he has waited so long to articulate the message. Kerry allowed himself to be defined by the opposition from the start, and has been reactive and fighting non-issues until the debate. There's not a lot of time left to turn that around.

Quote
Is there any evidence that shows that people tend to choose the bad over the unknown?


I think that without a clear choice, there is a tendency to go with "The Devil you know..." I know a number of conservative leaning moderates who don't care for Bush, and generally disagree with how Iraq is shaping up. But, Kerry hasn't shown them a clear alternative. I don't think it's up to either Kerry or Bush to lose, but it's up to Kerry to win and there is not much time left to do that now.

Charon
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 01:20:05 PM by Charon »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2004, 08:53:20 AM »
nash you really crack me up... you really do.... you scour the world for data that meets your preconcieved notions.... when you don't find it or a source you trust tells you the truth you say...

"wow... really great analalysis and management of the data but I will have to disagree with you because it isn't the answer I like...  Do you know of any data out there I that I agree with that sounds kinda legit so that I can post it and make a fool of myself again?"

In a gun thread you claimed that the FBI data isn't good enough and that the data for crime you will be using is your own...  you gotta let go man!

lazs

Offline moot

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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2004, 09:15:22 AM »
What's this got to do with SpitVs?
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2004, 09:18:53 AM »
Super Techmo Bowl!
-SW

Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2004, 09:55:34 AM »
OK guys.... duty calls and it's time for me to step forward.

I'm asking for your write-in vote.

You see.......... I have a PLAN!


Actually, I have several but you can write me in knowing that all will be well because I DO have a PLAN!

I thank you for your support.


;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2004, 10:02:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
OK guys.... duty calls and it's time for me to step forward.

I'm asking for your write-in vote.

You see.......... I have a PLAN!


Actually, I have several but you can write me in knowing that all will be well because I DO have a PLAN!

I thank you for your support.


;)

Which lab gets to be "First Lady" ? ;) (or would that title be changed to "First Biatch"?)