Refresh my memory, please, about HOs

[Delirium]

HOs were used historically and I have no problem with them used in AH, provided it isn't a 1v1 or a many vs 1 enemy. I tend to only perform when when outnumbered and I know I have a good shot, its not my only tactic, but a last resort.

The lowest form of life in AH (imho) is the guy that dives in, screws up his high speed pass, attempts to HO, and runs.

You can almost see what the guy is thinking...

"I didn't kill him at the merge! What do I do now?!? I have no idea what I'm supposed to do so I gotta run!"

Laughable... and more sadly its becoming a recurrent theme in AH as too many guys are afraid of dying in a virtual world.

[phookat]

Originally posted by dedalos
The assumption that if you push your plane under someones nose will give you an advantage, I think is wrong.  It really depends on what plane the other guy is in and what he does after the the planes pass eachother.  Just beacuse you pusshed your nose down a little, does not mean the other guy is going to make a mistake.  As far as e goes, how does one get an advantage over the other?

The reason you get the advantage is because he is HOing you.  The HO is the mistake.  That is what we're talking about here, after all.  E is balanced against angles.  If you nose under, he has to pull G's to get the "HO" on you, and he has to fly through you while you are already in the middle of the reversing turn.  He loses some E on the G's, and he loses angles on the merge.

Every situation is different, obviously, but nose-under is a good rule of thumb.    How sharply you reverse depends completely on the situation.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by phookat
The reason you get the advantage is because he is HOing you.  The HO is the mistake.  That is what we're talking about here, after all.  E is balanced against angles.  If you nose under, he has to pull G's to get the "HO" on you, and he has to fly through you while you are already in the middle of the reversing turn.  He loses some E on the G's, and he loses angles on the merge.

Every situation is different, obviously, but nose-under is a good rule of thumb.    How sharply you reverse depends completely on the situation.

Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand/learn.  How do you know that just because one chose to go HO and you pushed your nose down (u sould lose some e too by doing that) he is pussing his nose down hard.  How do you know that he is not going to pull up?  When I see people pointing down, I go up.  What if he is not firing or if it is not exactly a HO at the merge.  

I think the theory is true when the HOer just has that in mind but what if he fired a short burst at 1k out just to give you the impresion he is going head on?  What if he thinks u r the HOer?  What if you are in a Spit and he is in a D9?  It just does not seem right that all you got to do is push your nose down a little and the bad guy will find a way to die.

Than again, we can always try it in dif planes and see what really happens.  TA? I am on after 9 central time.

[Pyro]

Dedalos, the difference between what you describe and what I'm talking about is that you're not going for a head-on shot, you're looking to set up your shot through energy tactics.  Once I start drifting away to create some separation, if the other plane doesn't try to keep his sights on me, then I know it won't be a HO merge and the whole fight plays out differently.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Pyro
Dedalos, the difference between what you describe and what I'm talking about is that you're not going for a head-on shot, you're looking to set up your shot through energy tactics.  Once I start drifting away to create some separation, if the other plane doesn't try to keep his sights on me, then I know it won't be a HO merge and the whole fight plays out differently.

Yep, I agree with you.  I also know that you know what you are talking about.  But you are good, you know what to do.  For most people, the so called HO situation takes 1 to 2 seconds to build up. Not mach time to think.
I just don;t want them to get the impresion that a HO is easyly avoidable by just pointing your nose down a little.  I used to do it and 80% of the time I ended up losing an elevator or aleron or something.  Now, I go left and up.  In any case   and thanks for talking  with me about it.

[SlapShot]

Now, I go left and up.

[phookat]

Originally posted by dedalos
Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand/learn.  How do you know that just because one chose to go HO and you pushed your nose down (u sould lose some e too by doing that) he is pussing his nose down hard.  How do you know that he is not going to pull up?  When I see people pointing down, I go up.  What if he is not firing or if it is not exactly a HO at the merge.

Well Pyro beat me to it again, but basically if the other guy doesn't HO then the fight is different.  For starters you can be sure the other guy is better than average at least.  BTW, don't mistake me for an expert just cause I like to shoot my mouth off.

If the other guy is a HOer, then he has to pull more G's as he gets closer to you, because your relative deflection gets worse and worse.  Since you are below him, he is pulling G's in the "wrong" direction, i.e. down.  In contrast, your nose down is gentle and efficient.  You are not tracking a shot.

If he's not a HOer, nose-low is still a good rule of thumb.  What do I do when the other guy pulls up instead of HOing.  It depends on the relative E states.  If I think I have enough E, I pull up and follow, gaining the angle.  If he has too much E, I keep my speed up, and when he tries a pass I try a scissors.

[2stony]

After reading this story, I went to the American Fighter Aces album and looked up Herbert B. "Stub" Hatch, Jr.'s bio. Here's what's written.

     "That day the 71st was to fly top-cover for 82nd FG P-38s which were to dive-bomb the Ploesti Oil Fields-an ill conceived assignment for both groups. The 71st never reached the target as it was jumped by a superior force of Industria Aeronautica Romana (I.A.R.)80s(a Romanian-built fighter that wa very similar to the FW-190)while flying on the deck. With little room to manouver, the two P-38 groups lost 24 aircraft, whith the 71st losing one-third of the total."

     So it seems that there is a little contraversy as to what type of planes they encountered. We carry "An Escort of P-38s" in our store, so I'll check it out.
     We also had the 1st FG's reunion here at the museum last month with three aces in attendence. Tom Maloney, Joel Owens and Darrell Welch(who wore his original A-2 flight jacket with Italian made 1st FG patches on it). It was a really good event and they talked about this engagement during their symposium.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Now, I go left and up.

Wait a minute, I think it was down and right. Hmmm, or was it up? No no, it was hard left then hard right then . . .

There, now I confused you

[Redd]

Originally posted by dedalos
Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand/learn.  How do you know that just because one chose to go HO and you pushed your nose down (u sould lose some e too by doing that) he is pussing his nose down hard.  How do you know that he is not going to pull up?  When I see people pointing down, I go up.  What if he is not firing or if it is not exactly a HO at the merge.  

I think the theory is true when the HOer just has that in mind but what if he fired a short burst at 1k out just to give you the impresion he is going head on?  What if he thinks u r the HOer?  What if you are in a Spit and he is in a D9?  It just does not seem right that all you got to do is push your nose down a little and the bad guy will find a way to die.

Than again, we can always try it in dif planes and see what really happens.  TA? I am on after 9 central time.

The safest thing to assume in the arena now is that the incoming plane will try to HO you and treat every merge as a potential HO from the other guy. Get your HO avoidance down pat and you won't have any problems - both avoiding the HO and winning the angles.

In every merge you should probably try to get under their nose , both for HO avoidance , and to gain positon. It works.


The ones to worry about are the ones that don't HO -  treat that merge as a potential fight on your hands.