Author Topic: Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?  (Read 403 times)

Offline Gunslayer

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« on: January 10, 2001, 11:41:00 PM »
I have seen the post before about poeple wondering if Aces High pilots would be good ww2 pilots. I was wondering what everyone thought about the opposite.

Would real life WW2 aces be good at aces high?

Let me know what you think.

Gunslayer

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Offline Nash

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2001, 11:55:00 PM »
Well, yer gonna have the obvious effects of age at play here... vision, hand eye etc. And probably more importantly the fact that we are all used to looking at a 2 dimensional screen and fleshing it out into a 3-D environment.


But barring that...

Lets say, those aces at our ages, and as familiar with computers etc.

Sure - why not?


Offline Voss

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2001, 12:12:00 AM »
I think you have too many assumptions, Nash, and I say most probably yes, except for the computer experience. I would think most WWII pilots had a good visualization of 3D space. I doubt they'd all enjoy it though.

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Offline BUG_EAF322

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2001, 12:31:00 AM »
-Some wouldn't fit the cockpit

-Some wear glasses and would not be allowed   to be fighterpilot

-Some would get sick at the first best turnaround

-Some would get so stressed that they gonna do stupid things

-Some wouldn't have the guts

To many variables

But against some that would go in the air with just a couple off hours training
we would have great advantage.


S! chaps

Offline Nash

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2001, 12:55:00 AM »
Voss... yeah perhaps. I've read a couple of things though where real vets were invited to try out these sims, and it was initially very difficult to make the leap. Of course it would be.

All I'm really saying is that you couldn't expect a vet to be able to hop on a computer and be as good as they were back in the day. After some getting used to, I see no reason why not.

Offline Hangtime

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2001, 12:57:00 AM »
If he wuz good fighter pilot to start with (most wern't) and was now still able to see and hear and feed himself; and if he'd been flyin this sim as long as we had, and more importantly had another functinal sim experienced old fart ace with him..

..they'd be kickin our puppy asses, fartin dust on every simulated 9g turn and laffin their dentures outta their wrinked faces with every kill.  

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2001, 01:03:00 AM »
I have never flown in AH or WB with any WW2 pilots but I have flown with/against combat pilots of other eras.  They generally kick butt.

Offline Voss

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2001, 01:09:00 AM »
Agreed, but for the most part knowing the game is more then half of the battle.

Voss 13th T.A.S.

Offline Midnight

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2001, 05:21:00 AM »
I am thinking they would do poorly in AH. Reason? (Forget the age thing and computer skills... assume they know the computer well)

They are used to flying in a RL environment against opponents that were trying to keep themselves alive. Therefore, the WWII aces would be shotdown in situations like HOs and suicide attacks because their RL experieces would have them conditioned that other pilots just don't do that crazy crap.

Once they got re-conditioned to the MA mentality, they would probably do just as well as any of the other top pilots in here. Certainly, no-one lives forever in the MA, not even Citabria  

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Offline Gunslayer

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2001, 06:02:00 AM »
Perhaps i need to clarify. I was assuming that that the WW2 pilot would be in their prime as far as age. Obviously reflexes slow down with age so I would say if you took them outta WW2 and transported them here (I know they would think it was a strange enemy experiment)  

Personally i think once they got over the technology hurdle they would do great. Most of the poeple that I see that are great in aces are great because they know ACM. I am sure that Saburo Sakai or Erich Hartmann definitly knew a thing or 2 about that.

Offline Vermillion

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2001, 06:46:00 AM »
Well, I don't know first hand about WWII pilots, but I did get to meet Bob "Mouse" Shaw this summer and watch him try out AH on my computer.

For those that don't know, Bob was a pilot for the Navy and Airforce pilot in the early 70's until he retired. He also wrote "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manuvering", which is simply the best book ever written on fighter combat and tactics.

He sat down at my computer, and within 30 minutes was engaging some of AH's best pilots and holding his own. And this is considering the fact that it was a strange computer, with a complicated CH pro throttle, fighterstick, pro pedals, HOTAS setup that he had never touched before in his life. (Sidenote: its my setup and I still after using it since day one of AH, have to stop and think which buttons do do what sometimes).

It was scary the skill and natural aptitude that he showed.

So yes, I think they would do very well.

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Offline fd ski

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2001, 08:05:00 AM »
Verm, i think mouse might have "cheated" sorta  

I've met him at the AH con and it appeared that him and HTC crew are pretty tight.
I'm pretty sure that he was playing AH before most of us and had at least good bit of familiarization  

Hell of a nice guy too !!!


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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2001, 08:06:00 AM »
I believe any RL fighter pilot would have difficulty with this or any other flight sim...granted, their reflexes and control memory would be excellent, however, the flight model here does not behave as the RL life one would.

The first time he saddled on someones six, and they pulled that fish on a hook twisty thingie the 190 is so good at, he would laugh and quit

Ice

Offline phaetn

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2001, 09:22:00 AM »
I think the major problem is a lack of physical feedback of any sort, not to mention the limited viewing system.

In terms of conceptualising 3D space and their location within it, I am sure they would do fine.  However, there's no seat of the pants flying, and we as players have to rely completely on different indicators to tell us the state of the aircraft.

There's also the issue of computers being foreign and their not being used to controls, view switches, et cetera.   I'm sure the first time any vet got into a new plane there was a certain surreality, too.  With experience that quickly fades (as it does with flight sim pilots).  It's about getting to know the habits and limits of your environment.  I am sure they would feel as out of place in front of a computer for the first time and being told to "fly this!" as most of us would be if thrown into a WWII aircraft and told to take it up for a quick hop.  I also suspect that some of us have much more virtual flight time than many vets had real flight time, and that's true without a doubt in terms of combat flying.

Then there's the fact that we'd be nervous as all get out in the real cockpit, whereas vets routinely put their lives on the line to serve and sitting in front of a computer just doesn't generate the same anxiety. Death and fear are pretty potent motivators and in that sense there's no comparison between a game and having actually flown in combat.  We've got an interview to be published soon on Dogfighter with an F-15E Weapons System Officer and he's of the opinion that you can take what you learn in real flight and apply it to a well modeled sim, whereas you can't really do it the other way around.    

As previously mentioned, the physical element is *totally* missing in sims.  Not just G forces but all the other stuff that goes along with flying: cold, discomfort, tactile feedback, lack of sleep during wartime conditions.  I suspect other elements are the same -- preparation, anticipation, manoeuvring.  

I used to do track work in race-prepped Porsches, as well as having played the racing sim, Grand Prix Legends (still considered the pinnacle of driving sims).  Obviously getting pushed around in the seat, smells of rubber and oil, and sheer exhilaration were missing in the latter.  But there were also striking similarities: getting the car set up for the next corner, being aware of the hints that the simulated car was providing and being ready to react and dial in a little counter-steer or to lift off or, conversely, put the power down.  In the physical sense there's no comparison -- in the mental sense there were many similarities.  Good driving is all about anticipation so that when a car actually does something unexpected, it's not really all that unexpected and one can react almost instantaneously. It's about not being surprised when something happens because you were expecting it might happen all along so it's no big problem to deal with it when it does.  No panic -- just anticipation. Glorious slides exiting a corner look spectacular on TV but are really quite tame when you get in the "groove".  It's when something that is totally unaccounted for occurs that you get accidents and roll overs (a tire blowing, the car you're passing not seeing you and pulling into your line, a slick spot on the track that wasn't there last time around).

I know racing a car isn't like going to face death at the hands of an enemy, but that's what I can bring to the table from personal experience between a reality and a detailed simulation for a computer.   I went up in a dogfight with Air Combat USA last summer, too (in a SIAI Marchetti SF260 light attack Fighter-Trainer), and pulled a few Gs against a real opponent.  It was pretty tame stuff on many levels and under very controlled conditions.  I still threw up three times.     Then once more in the rental car on the way back.     Happily, my opponent was just as green in the gills and I think we both lost about five pounds from prespiring so much both because of exhiliration and our convusling stomachs.  Next time I flew Aces High my perception of a barrel roll was very different, as I could immediately reconcile  the experience I had had in-flight with what was presented on the screen.  I was very gentle on the controls for a loooong time after that. Time heals all wounds (and stomachs     ) so I don't relate the two much more any longer and now yank and bank as hard as the rest of them.    

 
More to the point, however, Dogfighter has interviewed quite a few WWII vets and specifically asked them their opinions about combat flight simulations and a few of them have even flown on-line sims or been consultants to developers.  Make sure to read our continuing [series of interviews] with real aviators and you'll catch a few that have flown sims.  Three in particular are revealing: Lt. Col. [Bill Stark] who flew P-38s in the Pacific and also flies WarBirds; ['Bob' Schmidt, USN] a veteran Naval and Air Guard pilot with nearly a thousand hours in the Grumman FM-2, F6F-5 Hellcat and North American P-51D who flew WB for the first time earlier this year; and famed Col. ['Bud' Anderson] who not only has 16.25 kills in WWII to his credit flying P-51s, but also acted as a consultant on Jane's WWII Fighters and did a lot of virtual flying as a result (he still flies Jack Roush's restored P-51, too, along with Chuck Yeager at airshows).  All three have insights into flying a flight sim based on tremendous real world experience in WWII aircraft.  There are a couple of reprints in there from the now late Saburo Sakai as well as Joe Foss who were consultants to Microsoft for CFS2.  

Anyhoo, sorry to go on so, but I find this subject incredibly interesting and I hope you find the interviews revealing, too!

Cheers,
phaetnAT


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Gian "phaetn" Vitzthum
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Edited to correct a link.


[This message has been edited by phaetn (edited 01-11-2001).]

Offline popeye

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Would real life ww2 aces be good at aces high?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2001, 09:22:00 AM »
Verm,
 
Mouse ain't exactly new to online multiplayer WWII flight sims.  He'd been flying these things years before he sat down at your computer.  He didn't have a bet with ya did he?  
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