engine for restoration project

[Roscoroo]

hmmmm ... 1st id say Laz you need a tune up ... bad


Now if i was building it at a nice trouble free cruiser . i would probly stay in the 300-400 hp range and i'd probely use a heavy pulling type camshaft . (truck cam ) theres a great 350hp all in one set up injected small block that around $4500-4800 (this thing comes with everything from the computer to the throttle body and we've been putting it in street rods like crazy .
http://www.gmpartsdepot.com/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product_ID=475&Category_ID=2 (ive got one on the stand right now as matter of fact awaiting my lazy arse to finish the chassis its going in)

If you want to stay carburated and stock looking there always the good ole ZZ4  (355 hp 350cu )  those sell for around $3500 and can be bumped up to 425-450 hp with a cam change , intake / carb and a decent set of headers.

these days its cheaper to buy a crate engine then it is to go thru a machine shop ...

now its all in your ussage of the car to determine what trans and gear set to use ..

if you want the best of bolth worlds id suggest a 3.55  or 3.73 rear gear and run a 700r4 overdrive trans behind it .

if your gonna keep the 2 speed then id check to see what gear it has then go from there  . 3.08 0r 3.23's for more hiway type driving  3.36 to 3.73's for more snap off the line  and if you really want a neck snaper  put some 4.11's in it (but beware it will buzz the rpms on the freeway .)


As for going to a big block .... I'd say how big is your pocket book ??? (your gonna spend 2-4 times the amount to go this route)  unless it was a 409 car to start with ... in that case you should email me cause we have 409 parts all over the place .

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The last 4 or 5 406 small blocks I built were a LOT cheaper than a ZZ4 PLUS a cam, intake, etc. Nevermind the fact that a ZZ4 doesn't make 355HP. Already had them on the dyno, and they need REAL help to make a true 355HP. And to change the cam you have to change valve springs, rockers, and other parts. The cam, intake, springs, rockers, and related labor will top $1K so fast it'll make you sick.

Crate motors are fine so long as you don't expect too much, and you don't mind settling for a mass produced cookie cutter motor that is not built specifically for what you want. If you don't mind having 10 or more less horsepower than you paid too much for, and it doesn't bother you that any number of people you meet may have the exact same motor as you do, then by all menas, buy a crate motor.

A big block won't cost 2-4 times what a small block will. More like 1.5 times as much. It will fit on the stock mounts with a little work.

[Roscoroo]

tell that story to my 68 camaro ....  it ran 12.50's with a stock ZZ4
(sort of looks like around a solid 350 hp eng to me)


if your building a race car then by all means spend the big bucks .. come on Virgil the race motors in all the stuff out here are costing 15-20k these days and machine shop prices are thru the roof .

This one is up around 35-40k as it sits



Can you say 6.80's

Its really up to what Modas whats to do and how he plans on driving the car . (just remember the more hp you build the more maintanence/parts it needs) yes ive build alot of 450 hp engines that hang together nicly but they cost alot more then 4k .

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

You buy your parts in the wrong places. And you pay too much.

I sent two 425 horse plus 406 small block Chevies out the door for UNDER $3500 each, with better parts than ANY ZZ4. They were dyno tested and made over 425HP. Ready to run. You can't get 425HP out of a ZZ4 for less than $4500, and it won't have the low speed torque or the driveability either. For $4500 you'd spend on a ZZ4, you can have 450HP plus out of a 406, and more reliable too.

And the dyno does not lie. The last ZZ4 crate motor I had made 342 horsepower, not 355. Oh, and it had special small lightweight pulleys ($300) AND a $400 Howard Stewart low drag water pump. When it came in the shop, right out of the crate, it ran on 5 cylinders, because the valves were not even adjusted properly. The carb GM specifies to get 355HP is an 80541 650HP Holley, sells for over $700 most places.

The 406 I sell has forged 5.7 rods, not powdered metal rods. It has stainless valves, a true roller timing set, a better intake, ARP bolts, and roller rockers. It will last a lot longer than a ZZ4 at anything over 375HP. It will also have over 50 ftlbs more torque than a ZZ4, and that is what moves heavy cars.

I can assure you I have more time and effort invested in crate motors, especially the ZZ4, than most people you know. Several tracks locally use the ZZ4 sealed crate motor. They go across my dyno regularly. And there is NOTHING at all special about a ZZ4. The heads are CHEAP Corvette heads with CHEAP parts. The rods are junky powdered metal. The block is a late model one piece rear seal light casting. The best thing about it is the forged crank, and it's only a 1053 steel one piece rear seal stock replacement part. Even the roller cam isn't anything to brag about, and you want to change it anyway.

You can spend as much as you want on a motor. I have a 550HP 454 on the engine stand right now, looks like the tab will be around $4500.

If you want to spend $20K - $30K, you can, it'll get you an all aluminum 2HP per cubic inch killer.

If you paid $30K plus for that, you paid too much. I built a 900HP plus 482 complete for under $20K. Could have been a 527 for the same price, and should have been, but the customer didn't want the bigger version.

Oh, and by the way, if your small block powered 68 Camaro runs 12.50 in the quarter, that's about 300HP, unless it weighs a lot more than 3500 pounds, or you had tons of tire spin. A true 350 plus HP motor should have you near 12 flat.

[Modas]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I build this stuff on a daily basis, for a living. I'll give you my suggestions based on my experience over the past 25 years.  

Do you have a shop or website or just build on the side?  I've got a number of shops that build engines (mostly in CA) but would love to add your's to the list as a source  

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
My suggestion would be a 406 small block Chevy if you want a small block. The car IS heavy, I owned one, it weighed 4200 pounds with a 409-425HP. It is relatively easy to build a driveable 406 or 408 that makes in excess of 440HP, and about 500 ftlbs of torque.  

With that much torque, am I going to have problems with the frame/rear end being able to handle all that especially since its a convertible?  I'm trying to stay away from the BB engines as I don't want to be messing with the mounts and such.  Basically looking for a drop in.

I'm basically building the car around the engine with as little modifications to the original structure as I can get away with.  If the car/frame/rear end can handle 440HP/500  then FANSTASTIC!!

J_A_B -  When I stated all my cars were low HP, there were all rear-wheel drive, just had the small v8's 150K+ miles and probably weren't putting out more than 200 HP on a good day  Never drove a front-wheel drive car until I met the present G/F

Does anybody have any links to some good car restoration newgroups?

[lazs2]

guys... you are getting a little out in left field here.   I could be wrong but I think the guy wants a dependable driver with an overdrive and good throttle response.

I believe he is talking a bout a stroked 350 (383) crate motor... either from a shop or direct from GM.   They all put out around 400 hp at low RPM with a relatively mild cam that gets good vacum at idle.   Nothing wrong with a 383.. Virgil is right tho that a 406 (bored 400) is better (wher you getting the blocks capt?)

I get the impression that modas doesn't want to be under the hood adjusting those gee wiz roller rockers or pulling plugs much even... he wants to open the hood to show his friends the motor that is moving his car so well.

virgil... I have the richmound 6 speed... it  is 1,000 more but by the time you buy the linkage for the 5 speed they are pretty close (6 speed comes with linkage).  Why not a 6 speed?

modas... the frame is fine in your car.  you will most likely want to change to heavier duty hotchkiss susspension parts and some good gas shocks and beef up the driveshaft and rear end.   Get a decent crate engine and then spend money on handling and stopping.  

rosco... I probly do need a tune up... can't get either of my cars in the 11's... the tires will spin most all the way at the drags... the freeway is different.   I know a lot of guys that claim they can spin the tires at 70 on the freeway by nailing the throttle and non of em do it when I'm in the car unless they abuse the car.  None will do it from 3 grand and just punching it.   even a 427 cobra replica or my Healey which both run low 12's and run side by side on the street.   neither can get traction at the drags with street tires but both get plenty of bite on the street.    

El Camino actually has better weitght distribution than a sedan.

lazs

[Modas]

Originally posted by lazs2
I could be wrong but I think the guy wants a dependable driver with an overdrive and good throttle response.

I believe he is talking a bout a stroked 350 (383) crate motor... either from a shop or direct from GM.   They all put out around 400 hp at low RPM with a relatively mild cam that gets good vacum at idle.   Nothing wrong with a 383.. Virgil is right tho that a 406 (bored 400) is better (wher you getting the blocks capt?)

I get the impression that modas doesn't want to be under the hood adjusting those gee wiz roller rockers or pulling plugs much even... he wants to open the hood to show his friends the motor that is moving his car so well.

virgil... I have the richmound 6 speed... it  is 1,000 more but by the time you buy the linkage for the 5 speed they are pretty close (6 speed comes with linkage).  Why not a 6 speed?

modas... the frame is fine in your car.  you will most likely want to change to heavier duty hotchkiss susspension parts and some good gas shocks and beef up the driveshaft and rear end.   Get a decent crate engine and then spend money on handling and stopping.  

rosco... I probly do need a tune up... can't get either of my cars in the 11's... the tires will spin most all the way at the drags... the freeway is different.   I know a lot of guys that claim they can spin the tires at 70 on the freeway by nailing the throttle and non of em do it when I'm in the car unless they abuse the car.  None will do it from 3 grand and just punching it.   even a 427 cobra replica or my Healey which both run low 12's and run side by side on the street.   neither can get traction at the drags with street tires but both get plenty of bite on the street.    

El Camino actually has better weitght distribution than a sedan.

lazs

Absolutely.

I'm looking to make this car a dependable driver with some get up and go.  Definitely don't want to be messing with the motor once its in with the exception of the normal maintainance stuff.

I'm budgeting $4500 - $6000 for the motor.  If I can do it for less, that is fantastic, but every shop I've researched up to this point falls in this range.  I'm definitely trying to stay away from the mass producted crate motors as I have also heard some horror stories.  Granted, they are probably the exception, not the rule, but I definitely don't want to be messing with it once its in.

[koda76]

Again....to keep this thread on-track get an EFI very dependable very drivable very friendly on the pocket book when it comes time to fuel up.....would post some pics of my pro-street 61 falcon but don't have a clue how....Nice pic above though

[Roscoroo]

I would probly suggest a a 383 stroker .. the crate ones are fine (but not quite as durable as a hand polished and massaged one)

Now the 383 is gonna make about 425-450hp and it will pull really nice with a 700r4 and 3.73 gears .

but the downside of this eng is if your heavy on the gas alot, its not gonna last as long as a nice 350 (its a tit for tat kinda thing here)

Remember no matter which eng you decide on your gonna need to add a set of headers and a nice 2 1/2 dual exhaust to it to get the best performance out of it .

http://www.midwestrestoparts.com/

http://www.classicindustries.com/

I'm putting Danchuk in even though ther 55-7 chev and 64-72 A-body but some of there parts will interchange and they make "Great" stuff ive been using them for years
http://www.danchuk.com/

you can also try Year one ,A&M soft seal.  do a search for them

theres a few more but i cant think of them at the moment ... Its been a while since ive done an impala  (I'm currently doing a 56 nomad , I'll post pics later tonight when i get home)

[mora]

Originally posted by koda76
Again....to keep this thread on-track get an EFI very dependable very drivable very friendly on the pocket book when it comes time to fuel up.....would post some pics of my pro-street 61 falcon but don't have a clue how....Nice pic above though

Yep, If you can get an EFI for a decent price, then go for it. No hassle with tuning and better economy and driveability.

If you want I can put the pictures up for you. Just e-mail them to:

mora34(at)gmail dot com

[lazs2]

EFI is very user friendly and you can get complete units from aftermarket or wiring harnesses for conversion of stock units from painless wiring.

for small blocks like we are talking about here... A very real alternative to the tube headers and all the hassle they entail is.. the new cast iron copy of the "rams horn" vette design of old from speedway.. it is a better flowing copy that is said to flow allmost as well as tube headers without the hassle.

lazs

[Modas]

Originally posted by lazs2
EFI is very user friendly and you can get complete units from aftermarket or wiring harnesses for conversion of stock units from painless wiring.

for small blocks like we are talking about here... A very real alternative to the tube headers and all the hassle they entail is.. the new cast iron copy of the "rams horn" vette design of old from speedway.. it is a better flowing copy that is said to flow allmost as well as tube headers without the hassle.

lazs

What kind of hassles are associated with tube headers?  Heat?  Installation?

[lazs2]

Heat, noise, rust out, fitting of stock accessories and exhaust leaks along with interference problems with things like starters and oil filters... some brands and coatings are better than others..  

lazs

[Roscoroo]

todays hi temp/crematic coated headers are actually really nice there less engine bay heat, they cool off really fast and they fit alot better then they did 20 years ago .

if you want to make potential of the horsepower then headers are the only way to go .. the larger reprodution "Ram horns" are nice in resto rides and slightly modifyed engs but they still dont scavange and breath the way a set of headers do.

if you go with cast manifolds its best to surface them really nice and install them without gaskets (this is for cast iron heads)

mine were coated 12 years ago and they still look good .

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I have people hunt blocks for me, I buy cores when they are available.

Nothing wrong with a Richmond 6 speed. But a 5 speed with a 3.08:1 gear is like a 4 speed with a 4.56:1 gear, in first gear, and a 3.08:1 gear in 5th. Somewhat cheaper and less complex. Either will be fine.

A well built 700R4 is a good option as well.

The 425HP 406 with a 700R4 is a common combination around here.

Have a driveshaft custom built. Although 55-64 Chevy rearends aren't the best, and aren't cheap, you can make one live behind a small block automatic setup easily, and it will do okay behind a stick if you are somewhat reasonable and prudent. The rest of the car should be fine. Beefing up the original will be about as cheap as buying something else and converting, with less hassle, and if you aren't going to race the car hard, it will live.

A convertible will be a little heavier than my old 409 hardtop was, about 150 pounds. I didn't do too much to that car, other than adding a second upper control arm on the rear, and stiffer bushings everywhere. The engine was STOCK. It originally came with two sets of head gaskets, and a set of different valve springs in the trunk. Took one set of gaskets out to raise compression, and swapped in the better valve springs. It was not too hard to maintain, despite solid lifters, dual carbs, and dual points. About an hour or so a week. I did kill a lot of Muncie 4 speeds, after I got the clutch setup figured out.

For your budget on the engine, you could get a REAL nice 406 with aluminum heads and a hydraulic roller, that will be reliable and low maintenance. EFI can be nice, but you better be able to maintain it or have someone who can. An aftermarket tuned port manifold with all the goodies, and a basicly stock GM system will run well. Or for a real nostalgia thrill, run two 350 TBI units on an Offy 2X4 intake. Done right, it looks like an old dual quad 283, and it is solid and simple.

The bigger the engine, the less stress it takes to make a given power level. That's why I like a 5.7" or 6" rod 406 so much. More power at a lower RPM than even a 383, and less trouble to build.

By all means, get a top quality coated header. And do not skimp on the exhaust.

Convert to power disc brakes. The brakes on that car SUCK. I know, I had a 409-425HP 64 Impala (wish i had it back, 6MPG and all), it would fly. But it wouldn't stop.

I do have a shop, have had for years. I do not have a website, I should though. I do build engines to ship all over, I have a couple in Norway, believe it or not. You can email me from the board if you want.